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Thread: Trayvon Martin Murder

  1. #46
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...d-around-world

    Another article with details of the 911 call and witness statements.

  2. #47
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    i just recommend caution as this public outcry could very easily have been created by a media storm gone awry. You've touched on the weight issue a few times yet from what i've read in obscure locations, Martin was a 6'3 football player weighing in around 150 or so while Zimmerman was a 5'9 seriously overweight slob of about 250ish. Easy given those new tidbits to see how Martin could've been dominating that "tustle". I've read about Zimmermans head being bloodied from being banged against the concrete. These are all comments given by people in response to the media reports so take them with a grain of salt. I've read that Zimmerman didn't just step in his truck and drive away. He was cuffed, taken to the sheriffs station and interviewed extensively by more than one person. The prosecutor was at the scene. Zimmerman was very banged up with a broken nose, gash to his head, grass stained clothing, etc. Despite the wounds the tustle continued until eventually the gun was drawn. If Zimm intended on shooting Martin I think he could've done it prior to the scuffle.

    zimmerman may be guilty as sin. however if the grand jury doesn't find enough to indict, or if the self-defense plea sticks....(HAC confirmed how easy it is to get an indictment so that parts moot) than would you consider changing your tune? maybe the public outcry was fueled by racism and the need to sell a story rather than facts? maybe it wasn't shoved under the rug? maybe the shame is people wanting so bad to blame someone that they'll ignore anything that contradicts their viewpoint to get it?
    You keep repeating this one account, despite their being conflicting accounts.

    The injustice in this case is twofold - 1) A young kid is needlessly dead and 2) Zimmerman was let to go free despite there being more than enough for an arrest and further investigation.

    If the grand jury doesn't indict or it does and Zimmerman is found innocent at trial due to self-defense, then so be it. The evidence was presented in court and the defendant was found innocent (or, in the former case, the evidence was found to be insufficient to indict). The procedure ran its course as it should. In either instance, Zimmerman should absolutely be able to move on with his life and be treated as innocent of any crime. However, it wouldn't change the fact that Zimmerman acted reckless and took the were wrong from the get-go and that the situation that resulted in Martin's death was unnecessary and created largely due to Zimmerman. Had Zimmerman simply followed the instructions of the 911 operator and let the police do their job, an otherwise innocent 17 year old kid would still be alive and an otherwise innocent adult would not have had his name dragged through the national mud.

  3. #48
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    If it's true that Zimmerman followed Martin, despite being told by the 911 operator not to, that's pretty fatal to self-defense arguments. Even if Zimmerman simply followed him and Martin reacted with force, the use of deadly force in self-defense is very tightly restrained. Florida may not have a duty to flee, but you still can only use deadly force in self-defense in apprehension of extreme bodily harm.
    Illini.

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  4. #49
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    This is a tragedy, yes. But the only racially motivated actions I noticed including the tragedy are the stupid comments and actions by occupywallstreet, 1000 hoodie march, and the black panthers.

    HAC - I'm pretty sure Zimmerman was in apprehension of great bodily harm, and a comment given by a 911 operator is not anywhere close to being an order given by a police officer.

  5. #50
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by LQ1Z34 View Post
    This is a tragedy, yes. But the only racially motivated actions I noticed including the tragedy are the stupid comments and actions by occupywallstreet, 1000 hoodie march, and the black panthers.

    HAC - I'm pretty sure Zimmerman was in apprehension of great bodily harm, and a comment given by a 911 operator is not anywhere close to being an order given by a police officer.
    Who said anything about an order? That has nothing to do with anything.
    Illini.

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  6. #51
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Also, "apprehension of extreme bodily harm" is from an objective point of view. If you have a phobia that most people wouldn't share, that doesn't qualify as self-defense. Believe it or not, the fact that Trayvon Martin was half his size and carrying skittles matters a great deal, and Zimmerman saying "well I was afraid he would seriously harm me because he was wearing a hoodie and acting suspicious" isn't going to carry the day with a rational jury.
    Illini.

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  7. #52
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by LQ1Z34 View Post
    This is a tragedy, yes. But the only racially motivated actions I noticed including the tragedy are the stupid comments and actions by occupywallstreet, 1000 hoodie march, and the black panthers.
    Do you believe that a black man in Sanford, Florida that shot a teenager would have been treated the same as Zimmerman was in this case up until public outcry forced the system's hand?

    Also, did you happen to see Geraldo Rivera's moronic comments about how Trayvon's hoodie was as much responsible for his death as Zimmerman was?

    Further, making accusations of racial motivation behind things is not "racially motivated". The fact of the matter is that the American justice system is not color blind, as much as we wish it was. Acknowledging that is not racism. It's facing reality. It's unfortunate that reality is still that way in the year 2012...but it is...and people shouldn't ignore race in situations that they feel were influenced by race out of fear of the "racism" label being flipped around on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by LQ1Z34 View Post
    HAC - I'm pretty sure Zimmerman was in apprehension of great bodily harm, and a comment given by a 911 operator is not anywhere close to being an order given by a police officer.
    It has nothing to do with it being an order or not.

    If Zimmerman was in "apprehension of great bodily harm" (despite him being much larger and armed against an unarmed teenager), it was entirely due to putting himself in that position.

  8. #53
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Yeah, the relevance of being told not to pursue Martin, and doing so anyway, is that it is evidence that Zimmerman intentionally put himself in a dangerous situation for no real reason. That will negate a self-defense claim, as the law doesn't seek to protect someone running into a sticky situation and shooting their way out.
    Illini.

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  9. #54
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Yeah, it was stupid, but it still doesn't negate Zimmerman's right to stand his ground.

  10. #55
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by LQ1Z34 View Post
    Yeah, it was stupid, but it still doesn't negate Zimmerman's right to stand his ground.
    All "stand your ground" means is that Zimmerman doesn't have to retreat before using deadly force. He's still not allowed to go after someone.
    Illini.

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  11. #56
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    i dont' know why everyone has to be so closed minded on this. everyone immediately wants to claim racism and subsequently ignores any other information that doesn't fit their claim.
    For starters, not everybody is claiming racism. I'm claiming awful police procedure and an odious law that rewards the escalation of violence, with the spoils going to whichever participant is better-armed.
    derp

  12. #57
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonGM View Post
    Further, making accusations of racial motivation behind things is not "racially motivated". The fact of the matter is that the American justice system is not color blind, as much as we wish it was. Acknowledging that is not racism.
    Ah, but in today's ass-backward conservative mind, it is. By even acknowledging that race could possibly be a factor in anything, the lie-berals are proving that they are The Real Racists.
    derp

  13. #58
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by LQ1Z34 View Post
    Yeah, it was stupid, but it still doesn't negate Zimmerman's right to stand his ground.
    No, it negates using "Stand Your Ground" as a defense. You cannot claim self-defense if you initiate an altercation.

    Theoretically, the only person in this case who could have realistically used "Stand Your Ground" as a defense was Martin.
    derp

  14. #59
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Ugh. I've been arguing the probable-cause-for-arrest angle here on facebook for an hour, citing two actual lawyers (HAC and my stepfather), and this one dude (who is NOT an attorney) simply will not budge on it.
    derp

  15. #60
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonGM View Post
    You keep repeating this one account, despite their being conflicting accounts.

    The injustice in this case is twofold - 1) A young kid is needlessly dead and 2) Zimmerman was let to go free despite there being more than enough for an arrest and further investigation.

    If the grand jury doesn't indict or it does and Zimmerman is found innocent at trial due to self-defense, then so be it. The evidence was presented in court and the defendant was found innocent (or, in the former case, the evidence was found to be insufficient to indict). The procedure ran its course as it should. In either instance, Zimmerman should absolutely be able to move on with his life and be treated as innocent of any crime. However, it wouldn't change the fact that Zimmerman acted reckless and took the were wrong from the get-go and that the situation that resulted in Martin's death was unnecessary and created largely due to Zimmerman. Had Zimmerman simply followed the instructions of the 911 operator and let the police do their job, an otherwise innocent 17 year old kid would still be alive and an otherwise innocent adult would not have had his name dragged through the national mud.
    i see it differently. i don't think the cops should automatically make an arrest. it's there job to have reasonable cause.

    if he's found not guilty in a trial, or even moreso, if he's not even indicted after the grand jury review...than I think it can be fairly stated that the police were justified in not making an arrest. if he's indicted and even moreso if he's found guilty...then i think its very reasonable to question and be skeptical of the police not making an arrest. We don't know all the evidence that is out there.

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