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Thread: Trayvon Martin Murder

  1. #16
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Alloutwar View Post
    If I shot someone - an unarmed minor - fatally - outside my house - and I WASN'T forced to defend myself in a trial - I would think there is something royally F'd up with the system.

    I guess that's where the Zimmermann defenders lose me. We should be all over this. A kid died. Why we're playing Zimmermann's lawyer automatically, when the guy isn't even under arrest, is F'ing ridiculous.

    Side note: why do so many shootings have to be fatal? Mainly in TV - CSI, all the crime dramas - but more so in real life. Does no one shoot to wound anymore? Thigh, arm? Gut? Why does everyone have to shoot to effing kill? Just a thought, but if I was going at someone and got a bullet in the thigh, I would probably cease attacking and become pretty docile at that point.
    If I was an a pretty small kid armed with a bag of Skittles and a can of Arizona and a large grown man was following me, and for some reason I decided to attack him, I'd back away as soon as I heard a gun shot, let alone been struck with a bullet.

  2. #17
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Alloutwar View Post
    If I shot someone - an unarmed minor - fatally - outside my house - and I WASN'T forced to defend myself in a trial - I would think there is something royally F'd up with the system.

    I guess that's where the Zimmermann defenders lose me. We should be all over this. A kid died. Why we're playing Zimmermann's lawyer automatically, when the guy isn't even under arrest, is F'ing ridiculous.

    Side note: why do so many shootings have to be fatal? Mainly in TV - CSI, all the crime dramas - but more so in real life. Does no one shoot to wound anymore? Thigh, arm? Gut? Why does everyone have to shoot to effing kill? Just a thought, but if I was going at someone and got a bullet in the thigh, I would probably cease attacking and become pretty docile at that point.
    Too much Call of Duty and people wanting to go BOOM HEADSHOT!

    But yeah that's all the more reason to investigate.
    Illini.

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  3. #18
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by haveacigar View Post
    There's plenty of evidence for an arrest, much less to bring it before a grand jury. As someone with a legal background, I'm not surprised you have no clue what you're talking about here. I'm not sure how the hypotheticals relate to this case at all, but arrests in each of those cases happen routinely. Believe it or not, innocent people have to defend themselves in legal proceeds quite often. That's especially true when their innocent conduct involves fatally shooting something.

    Maybe Zimmerman does have a valid self defense claim. The problem is that the police weren't even going to investigate or conduct any fact finding exercise whatsoever until the public outcry, and every bit of that reeks with racism. You can play devil's advocate all you want, but there's absolutely no excuse for the police's response to this case.

    mo
    what evidence is there to arrest AND bring to a grand jury no less?

    moreso.. how do you know the police weren't going to investigate? thats the part that confuses me and maybe i'm missing something. you've got a racially charged incident where people don't care about facts and after the fact many claiming that the cops did this, wouldn't listen to this, yada yada. We don't have the police depts. side. We don't have any reports to my knowledge on how this was handled in comparison with accepted police procedure. We don't know what kind of investigation work they did. We're buying into the racially charged background noise and thinking "oh its kid with candy and a softdrink, it was obviously not his fault" and the racist cops are ignoring it. Seems too easy. I need to see evidence before I make a decision one way or the other. If there really was police corruption / racism involved, than i'll wait for internal affairs or the FBI to complete their investigation before rendering judgement.

  4. #19
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    mo
    what evidence is there to arrest AND bring to a grand jury no less?
    The fact that he fatally shot someone who is unarmed is enough evidence to support probable cause to arrest and bring before a grand jury.
    Illini.

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  5. #20
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonGM View Post
    If I was an a pretty small kid armed with a bag of Skittles and a can of Arizona and a large grown man was following me, and for some reason I decided to attack him, I'd back away as soon as I heard a gun shot, let alone been struck with a bullet.
    so you're saying he's justified by attacking the man following him. It didn't sound as if Zimmerman was running. He had a phone to his ear. You mean if this kid truly wanted to get away he couldn't?

    Hey....if Zimmerman was "stalking" or following closely and confronting the kid....i could certainly see and find a way to justify Martin attacking out of fear and self defense himself. If the kid was trying to be a bada$$ and had enough, turned and walked towards a Zimmerman following at a reasonable distance (subjective) and began shoving him and attacking him than no. Zimmerman then would be in his right. The only evidence I've seen at all on how these two confronted each other was the girlfriends statement that Martin turned around and yelled "why are you following me" which was then followed by "what are you doing here" from Zimmerman and subsequent shoving before the line went out. We don't know. If Zimmerman was 100' back waiting for the cops to call him back and Martin turned and ran to him...wouldn't that be self defense on Zimmermans part?

    Zimmerman called the cops and knew they were on their way. Why would he attempt to stop and attack the kid knowing that? It's possible, but reason tells me he would've wanted the kid in eyesight as hew as awaiting a call back from the cops. Coupled with the girlfriends account, it seems more likely the kid turned and went after Zimmerman. But we don't know. Thats the point. And unless evidence presented itself the cops shouldn't make an arrest just because.

    It seems as many are just claiming the "cops did nothing" because they didn't make an arrest. The two don't have to go together.

  6. #21
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by haveacigar View Post
    The fact that he fatally shot someone who is unarmed is enough evidence to support probable cause to arrest and bring before a grand jury.
    i would disagree considering he had phoned the cops prior and we don't know all the witness accounts that were taken. i think both of those would be taken into account when they make their decision. Certainly Zimmerman would be detained and brought in for questioning...but an arrest? Had he not called the cops prior.....maybe. Again, that to me would depend upon witness accounts.

  7. #22
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Alloutwar View Post
    If I shot someone - an unarmed minor - fatally - outside my house - and I WASN'T forced to defend myself in a trial - I would think there is something royally F'd up with the system.

    I guess that's where the Zimmermann defenders lose me. We should be all over this. A kid died. Why we're playing Zimmermann's lawyer automatically, when the guy isn't even under arrest, is F'ing ridiculous.

    Side note: why do so many shootings have to be fatal? Mainly in TV - CSI, all the crime dramas - but more so in real life. Does no one shoot to wound anymore? Thigh, arm? Gut? Why does everyone have to shoot to effing kill? Just a thought, but if I was going at someone and got a bullet in the thigh, I would probably cease attacking and become pretty docile at that point.
    See, i'm not defending Zimmerman. I'm merely stating that I disagree with the premise that the police can arrest and charge someone with a crime without evidence that the individual committed a crime. Just because an unarmed man was shot doesn't mean it wasn't self defense and that a crime was committed. The guy did call the cops prior to the altercation, was working with them and expecting a call back. He made a dumb decision and followed the kid on foot. From there we don't know what transpired other than that of course the kid was shot after an altercation.

  8. #23
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    There's a ton we don't know. I worked right next to Sanford for a few years (Lake Mary, FL - pretty whitebred area), so I have some knowledge of the area. Other than that, this is what we know:

    -Zimmermann is part hispanic, neighborhood watch, and very hyperactive/vigilant, in terms of calling 911 all the time.
    -Kid was black, underage, unarmed, walking to store/home.
    -Zimmermann shot the kid fatally, was not arrested/interrogated.
    -Stories of corruption abound - police not doing what they should, gathering supporting statements only, and using kid gloves on Zimmermann.

    Now my first instinct would be, why is a hispanic guy assuming a black kid is up to no good? Minorities right! White man should be the enemy. But then again, living in Florida, both groups are rather large, and they don't get along. I have a Dominican friend who looks black, and she doesn't really get along with either group. But that's limited personal experience.

    Knowing the above, and nothing else, I would expect some outcry and insinuation of racism, and I would hope that things are handled better and Zimmermann is held to the same standard that anyone else murdering someone would be.

  9. #24
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    so you're saying he's justified by attacking the man following him. It didn't sound as if Zimmerman was running. He had a phone to his ear. You mean if this kid truly wanted to get away he couldn't?

    Hey....if Zimmerman was "stalking" or following closely and confronting the kid....i could certainly see and find a way to justify Martin attacking out of fear and self defense himself. If the kid was trying to be a bada$$ and had enough, turned and walked towards a Zimmerman following at a reasonable distance (subjective) and began shoving him and attacking him than no. Zimmerman then would be in his right. The only evidence I've seen at all on how these two confronted each other was the girlfriends statement that Martin turned around and yelled "why are you following me" which was then followed by "what are you doing here" from Zimmerman and subsequent shoving before the line went out. We don't know. If Zimmerman was 100' back waiting for the cops to call him back and Martin turned and ran to him...wouldn't that be self defense on Zimmermans part?

    Zimmerman called the cops and knew they were on their way. Why would he attempt to stop and attack the kid knowing that? It's possible, but reason tells me he would've wanted the kid in eyesight as hew as awaiting a call back from the cops. Coupled with the girlfriends account, it seems more likely the kid turned and went after Zimmerman. But we don't know. Thats the point.
    Read the article I linked to. Zimmerman's 911 call contains the situation from the moment he called to shortly after he got out of his truck to pursue the teenager as he began to run. There is no point in discussing this situation if you're just going to misrepresent it.

    Zimmerman was IN HIS TRUCK. Martin BEGAN TO RUN (and it was at this point that Zimmerman likely referred to him as a "coon"). Zimmerman LEFT HIS TRUCK AND PURSUED MARTIN. If Zimmerman was 100 feet away waiting for the cops, and Martin ran towards him, the 911 operator would not have asked "Are you following him?" and Zimmerman would not have replied "Yes." Further, being that Zimmerman was in his truck before getting out to pursue Martin, if Martin ran towards him and he felt threatened by this, you know what he could have done? DRIVEN THE **** AWAY. He had already called the cops and was given assurance that they were en route.

    We know these facts from Zimmerman's 911 call. I didn't want to continue this conversation with you but your blatant disregard for facts (all while telling everyone else to listen to the facts LOL) needs to be pointed out to you.

    Here's that article again: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michae...b_1378581.html

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay
    i would disagree considering he had phoned the cops prior and we don't know all the witness accounts that were taken. i think both of those would be taken into account when they make their decision. Certainly Zimmerman would be detained and brought in for questioning...but an arrest? Had he not called the cops prior.....maybe. Again, that to me would depend upon witness accounts.
    Calling the cops does not give you protection from an arrest if you commit a crime.

  10. #25
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    See, i'm not defending Zimmerman. I'm merely stating that I disagree with the premise that the police can arrest and charge someone with a crime without evidence that the individual committed a crime. Just because an unarmed man was shot doesn't mean it wasn't self defense and that a crime was committed. The guy did call the cops prior to the altercation, was working with them and expecting a call back. He made a dumb decision and followed the kid on foot. From there we don't know what transpired other than that of course the kid was shot after an altercation.
    I get the meat of what you're saying - but the gun and bullet being the ones that killed the kid IS evidence. That is evidence of a murder. Does it get explained away as self defense - or become a pleaded out manslaughter charge? Who knows - that's why we need the process, a trial, etc. Sending the guy home with a thanks-for-your-time is flat out wrong.

    The fact that people are taking the story (self defense!) as a reason to eliminate the entire legal portion of the process is disturbing.

    Take an alternate case. Your unarmed 17 year old son is gunned down by a black guy outside the club he serves as a bouncer for. He called 911 first when he saw your son walking down the road. He had a permit for the gun. He tells the police your son ran at him and it was self defense.

    Everything end there? You go 'aw shucks, okay man, sounds plausible' and he goes home, no charges or anything?

    I think not.

  11. #26
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    i would disagree considering he had phoned the cops prior and we don't know all the witness accounts that were taken. i think both of those would be taken into account when they make their decision. Certainly Zimmerman would be detained and brought in for questioning...but an arrest? Had he not called the cops prior.....maybe. Again, that to me would depend upon witness accounts.
    You are strongly overestimating the amount of evidence required for an arrest or the initiation of a grand jury. Probable cause is a pretty low burden to meet. Martin was walking away from him and he followed, and then he fatally shot Martin. Those two facts establish probable cause. Probable cause is nothing more than a reasonable suspicion that a crime was committed. The shooting alone is enough, because in the fast majority of cases, a person shooting someone else is a crime.

    And anyway, I'm confused, the process of "being detained and brought in for questioning" is called an arrest. Are you trying to say he shouldn't be indicted yet? That I agree with.
    Illini.

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  12. #27
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Alloutwar View Post
    I get the meat of what you're saying - but the gun and bullet being the ones that killed the kid IS evidence. That is evidence of a murder. Does it get explained away as self defense - or become a pleaded out manslaughter charge? Who knows - that's why we need the process, a trial, etc. Sending the guy home with a thanks-for-your-time is flat out wrong.

    The fact that people are taking the story (self defense!) as a reason to eliminate the entire legal portion of the process is disturbing.

    Take an alternate case. Your unarmed 17 year old son is gunned down by a black guy outside the club he serves as a bouncer for. He called 911 first when he saw your son walking down the road. He had a permit for the gun. He tells the police your son ran at him and it was self defense.

    Everything end there? You go 'aw shucks, okay man, sounds plausible' and he goes home, no charges or anything?

    I think not.
    i agree we need process...entirely. The process is that the police need evidence to charge with a crime and self defense is not a crime. Using your analogy, which i feel is very unlikely, i could see the bouncer not being charged. There's gotta be some motive there? Why did the bouncer call the cops? You're telling me some kid walking down the street decided to charge a bouncer at a night club for no apparent reason? It's not a realistic scenario. And again, the witness statements would be critical into the polices decision making process.

  13. #28
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    i agree we need process...entirely. The process is that the police need evidence to charge with a crime and self defense is not a crime. Using your analogy, which i feel is very unlikely, i could see the bouncer not being charged. There's gotta be some motive there? Why did the bouncer call the cops? You're telling me some kid walking down the street decided to charge a bouncer at a night club for no apparent reason? It's not a realistic scenario. And again, the witness statements would be critical into the polices decision making process.
    As haveacigar suspected in his last post, it seems that you're conflating being arrested with being charged with a crime.

  14. #29
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by haveacigar View Post
    You are strongly overestimating the amount of evidence required for an arrest or the initiation of a grand jury. Probable cause is a pretty low burden to meet. Martin was walking away from him and he followed, and then he fatally shot Martin. Those two facts establish probable cause. Probable cause is nothing more than a reasonable suspicion that a crime was committed. The shooting alone is enough, because in the fast majority of cases, a person shooting someone else is a crime.

    And anyway, I'm confused, the process of "being detained and brought in for questioning" is called an arrest. Are you trying to say he shouldn't be indicted yet? That I agree with.
    maybe the grand jury thing confuses me. I'm saying that he should not be charged with a crime without evidence. By that...i thought meant that he shouldn't be indicted. Maybe the process is something I'm naive to. I don't believe one can be arrested unless they are charged with a crime? Being detained and questioned is not being arrested. People are claiming he should be arrested, which...i thought...was the same as being indicted yet you were calling for an arrest but not an indictment? By Grand Jury...i'm assuming you meant trial. Are you merely saying that a special jury investigate if a crime was committed prior to an arrest? That i'd agree with. I don't see how an arrest can be made however until they have evidence to indict with a crime.

  15. #30
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    Re: Trayvon Martin Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonGM View Post
    As haveacigar suspected in his last post, it seems that you're conflating being arrested with being charged with a crime.
    lol, admittedly that may be the case.

    HAC...explain the difference for me please. How can someone be arrested and not indicted. I thought the two go hand in hand. Detaining someone as a person of interest, or even a suspect is not an arrest as far as I understand it. I would think Zimmerman would not object to a reasonable amount of questioning and "detaining" wouldn't even be necessary. Explain please.

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