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Thread: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

  1. #46
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    Re: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

    Quote Originally Posted by BINGLEBOP View Post
    this kind of stuff is done "exclusively" by republicans. kind of shocking.

  2. #47
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    Re: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    i never said that wasn't the case. i said its certainly however not the norm or an everyday everytime occurrence. its not infrequent either....but lets stop the overexaggerating fear mongering from both camps.
    True. My two cents is I personally don't mind the legislation being repealed. That said it is a failure on both parties and the media to me. Because on one end the Democrats didn't tell me enough about the bill to sell me on it as a good bill and I'm sure with any bill of this magnitude, many concessions were made to be passed in the first place, probably not shared to the public to make it even worse than what was originally introduced. So I really don't know what exactly this is. On the Republican side, they failed because outside of the labels, they really didn't explain how the bill is necessarily evil either. I don't like "hot" words like job killer, sacrificing our kids future, nonsense like that.

    All in all I am truly undecided on the bill itself, what good it really does or what bad it really does. If you actually seen the bill, that is a LOT of type, I don't think any of us can really say for certain what the bill actually does. That shouldn't be our responsibility, it should be the lawmakers who actually write it.
    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonGM View Post
    I'm an idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    lern 2 english

  3. #48
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    Re: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

    Well now I won't be on my parents healthcare until I'm 26. Joining the millions of uninsured most likely once I turn 22

  4. #49
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    Re: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

    For those who were curious:

    Health Care Repeal: Meet the 3 Dems Who Voted to Overturn the Law

    Dan Boren (Oklahoma), Mike McIntyre (North Carolina) and Mike Ross (Arkansas)

  5. #50
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    Re: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    this kind of stuff is done "exclusively" by republicans. kind of shocking.
    Call me when he puts a crosshairs on someone.

    Also, the repeal has to go through the Senate now, which can't pass it.
    derp

  6. #51
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    Re: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    for starters, i didn't say your examples weren't "real" i said they were exaggerations. you make it sound as if everyone everytime gets dropped coverages when they get sick and told they aren't covered, etc. thats totally untrue and equally as rediculous.

    the term "death panel" may be ludicrous but its not totally "unreal". Even today we have panels of some sort determining whether or not elderly should get cancer treatments, who gets organ transplants and who doesn't, etc. These are based upon numerous issues but lets face it, when there are limited resources and risks associated, someone is going to make a decision at some point who gets care and who doesn't. They do exist...but are exaggerated in the same manner you admit to exaggerating other aspects of healthcare. These exaggerations only fuel hostility and do nothing to push forward meaningful debate. Thats my point.

    you are very opinionated on this topic and appear to be well educated. i'm just offerin some constructive criticism in saying that you appear to be attacking nonsense with nonsense which is not a good way to debate. You claim you want to stop the "fear" but you use "fear" as a method to attack it. I don't quite get it.
    While your patronizing tone is duly noted, I'm sure he can stand without your "constructive criticism."
    derp

  7. #52
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    Re: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

    Two viewpoints, ideals, or statements simply appearing on the same page in a forum in cyberspace does not make them equally true or relevant. This is an argument tactic - again, something of a conservative one - to completely make up bullsh*t out of thin air, and when called out on it and hit with facts, to seek to equate the two, or say they're both opinions, or viewpoints, or equally untrue.

    That's bullsh*t. It's like saying Luke Scott is entitled to his opinion on Obama's being a kenyan. I don't know why the level of discourse has taken this ridiculous turn in the last 10 years, but non-factual, ignorant statements or thoughts have no place on the same level as facts.

    I know I'm coming at most healthcare issues hard and fast - and occasionally I'll be quick to dismiss people that don't have a clue as to what their talking about. Again, you make something your career for 10-12 years or so, you see the negatives every day, you have your patients die while insurance companies give bonuses to employees that deny claims, and you'll have strong opinions. Whatever your career - truck driving, sales, forum troll, whatever - if you know it inside and out, and something comes along that is 90% good and fixes huge problems that have been around for forty years, and then see uneducated folks follow complete mistruths to arrive at a full-blown misconception that threatens that huge step forward, then you'd be disappointed/angry/incredulous as well.

    Let me break if down for anyone completely unaware:

    The US has a great healthcare system in several ways - the best, really. Technology, doctor availability, doctor education, health standards, privacy, support staff, available treatments and opinions, on and on. By itself, all of those are great, and likely could go against any other country.

    Unfortunately, we have our terrible points - Costs, number one. Preventative care being totally disregarded, number two. And insurance companies getting in the way, which causes most of number one. Uninsured or people with no healthcare is a big one too.

    Today - or more accurately, before this bill - insurance companies had the following concepts:
    - pre-existing conditions. The right to deny you for coverage, or not cover certain ailments, if you had them and knew of them before becoming insured.
    - lifetime (or even yearly) caps. Most policies had this - I see them every day. You need a very rare medication that's $50,000 a dose? You get it for 19 months. Then you've hit your $1mil lifetime cap, and no more healthcare services covered, ever.
    - denying claims. Some companies adopted bonuses for employees that found reasons to deny. Others deny everything as a first pass (ever see The Rainmaker?).
    - terminating coverage. Insurers can (could) terminate coverage. If you get a test and have some debilitating disease, and they couldn't classify it as pre-existing, they would have some legal method of terminating you. I've seen patients that have coverage, get a test, go in for an operation, and then get a bill with a notice saying their coverage was terminated a few days before their surgery. $58,000 please.
    - Death Panels! Not quite. But insurance companies have doctors that review treatments, medications, everything. Some are just accepted as services the company sees as approved, and will pay for. Others require a 'prior authorization', where the Insurance company has to get paperwork (sometimes just one sheet with dx [diagnosis] and signature, oftentimes more like months of lab work and doctor's thesis papers), or force you to try alternates first. A third category is just not covered - things the company decides are not worth covering, or not accepted treatments, or just too expensive.

    Then there's the donut hole for seniors, dependents being cut off at age 21/22, and all kinds of other minor things. All of which were fixed in the bill, which has insurance companies furious and spending like crazy to undo it.

    Now, let's evaluate the bullsh*t statements that right-wingers spout and I make fun of:

    - Socialized/Nationalized healthcare. This is the closest to a tiny hint of truth, if everyone has to have insurance or be taxed. But socialized? Nationalized? Government takeover? There's not even a public option like in the original plans - that would have allowed the 'government takeover' shout to have actual weight or merit (although it was treated that way anyhoo). Socialized, nationalized? Nope, still private companies in a profit model - just actually playing by rules now.
    - Job-Killing - minor stroke of genius here. Take a policy that is currently costing people their savings, their livelihood, and in some cases their lives - when they are denied/dropped/run out of coverage - and use that same verb (killing) to describe the FIX's effect....on employment! Nice spin, complete 180. Factual - well no, it's all opinion, with tons of economists and anaylists coming down on all sides. But a powerful statement, and just like pro-life, making being against it seem to benefit you, when in reality it takes away your rights and freedoms.
    - Illegal Immigrant coverage - heard this a lot, that immigrants will be covered. Remember the 'you lie' episode, with that south carolina classless hick that became a Repub hero? Yah - try to find it in the bill. Double dog dare you.
    - Death Panels - the assumption was that this was government-run panels that would decide when seniors could no longer get medication or treatment. Great, great statement to induce fear. Factual basis - none. Not in the bill. The real genius of this is that it's a double whammy - got people all scared about something that not only wasn't in the bill as a government program - but DOES happen today in the private industry! Take something dastardly terrible, spin it to seem like a new concept attached to the bill, while completely fabricating the entire thing. Congratulations, misinformation - awards go to Sarah Palin and Faux.

    This isn't rocket science, guys. Things that the industry actually did, from 1970 through 2010, and comparing them with slanted statements to outright lies - these are not equal thoughts. Trying to put them on equal footing gives the benefit to the side that is complet bullsh*t, and it's not something I'm willing to do.

    Political discourse has been catering to the ignorant for a decade now, and it's time to end it. If you don't know how the bill works, how healthcare works, how insurance companies work, and how to spot a complete fu*king lie versus an example from real life experience - then either figure it out, or keep silent to not embarrass yourself.

  8. #53
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    Re: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

    tl;dr
    derp

  9. #54
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    Re: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alloutwar View Post
    [Snipped rational, informed thinking for aesthetic reasons. Please refer to original post.]


    Political discourse has been catering to the ignorant for a decade now, and it's time to end it. If you don't know how the bill works, how healthcare works, how insurance companies work, and how to spot a complete fu*king lie versus an example from real life experience - then either figure it out, or keep silent to not embarrass yourself.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TylvUGJIi_w

  10. #55
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    Re: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

    Hey AOW...








































    You mad?
    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonGM View Post
    I'm an idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    lern 2 english

  11. #56
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    Re: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

    Sick and tired, more like it. Anger doesn't get you anywhere, but eviscerating stupidity with facts at least makes me feel a bit better.

    For anyone else up on HealthCare debate, that finds it somewhat hypocritical that Republican representatives blast this as government-controlled healthcare or socialized/nationalized - while simulatenously getting government healthcare that you, I, and all other taxpayers absorb the cost of - well, there's a form you can fax them.

    Think government healthcare is terrible? Think lots of people paying into the government and it doling out healthcare is bad? Think making people pay for others' healthcare is unamerican?

    Then sign on the dotted line b*tches! THEN maybe I'll take one word of the BS seriously.

  12. #57
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    Re: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alloutwar View Post
    Two viewpoints, ideals, or statements simply appearing on the same page in a forum in cyberspace does not make them equally true or relevant. This is an argument tactic - again, something of a conservative one - to completely make up bullsh*t out of thin air, and when called out on it and hit with facts, to seek to equate the two, or say they're both opinions, or viewpoints, or equally untrue.

    That's bullsh*t. It's like saying Luke Scott is entitled to his opinion on Obama's being a kenyan. I don't know why the level of discourse has taken this ridiculous turn in the last 10 years, but non-factual, ignorant statements or thoughts have no place on the same level as facts.

    I know I'm coming at most healthcare issues hard and fast - and occasionally I'll be quick to dismiss people that don't have a clue as to what their talking about. Again, you make something your career for 10-12 years or so, you see the negatives every day, you have your patients die while insurance companies give bonuses to employees that deny claims, and you'll have strong opinions. Whatever your career - truck driving, sales, forum troll, whatever - if you know it inside and out, and something comes along that is 90% good and fixes huge problems that have been around for forty years, and then see uneducated folks follow complete mistruths to arrive at a full-blown misconception that threatens that huge step forward, then you'd be disappointed/angry/incredulous as well.

    Let me break if down for anyone completely unaware:

    The US has a great healthcare system in several ways - the best, really. Technology, doctor availability, doctor education, health standards, privacy, support staff, available treatments and opinions, on and on. By itself, all of those are great, and likely could go against any other country.

    Unfortunately, we have our terrible points - Costs, number one. Preventative care being totally disregarded, number two. And insurance companies getting in the way, which causes most of number one. Uninsured or people with no healthcare is a big one too.

    Today - or more accurately, before this bill - insurance companies had the following concepts:
    - pre-existing conditions. The right to deny you for coverage, or not cover certain ailments, if you had them and knew of them before becoming insured.
    - lifetime (or even yearly) caps. Most policies had this - I see them every day. You need a very rare medication that's $50,000 a dose? You get it for 19 months. Then you've hit your $1mil lifetime cap, and no more healthcare services covered, ever.
    - denying claims. Some companies adopted bonuses for employees that found reasons to deny. Others deny everything as a first pass (ever see The Rainmaker?).
    - terminating coverage. Insurers can (could) terminate coverage. If you get a test and have some debilitating disease, and they couldn't classify it as pre-existing, they would have some legal method of terminating you. I've seen patients that have coverage, get a test, go in for an operation, and then get a bill with a notice saying their coverage was terminated a few days before their surgery. $58,000 please.
    - Death Panels! Not quite. But insurance companies have doctors that review treatments, medications, everything. Some are just accepted as services the company sees as approved, and will pay for. Others require a 'prior authorization', where the Insurance company has to get paperwork (sometimes just one sheet with dx [diagnosis] and signature, oftentimes more like months of lab work and doctor's thesis papers), or force you to try alternates first. A third category is just not covered - things the company decides are not worth covering, or not accepted treatments, or just too expensive.

    Then there's the donut hole for seniors, dependents being cut off at age 21/22, and all kinds of other minor things. All of which were fixed in the bill, which has insurance companies furious and spending like crazy to undo it.

    Now, let's evaluate the bullsh*t statements that right-wingers spout and I make fun of:

    - Socialized/Nationalized healthcare. This is the closest to a tiny hint of truth, if everyone has to have insurance or be taxed. But socialized? Nationalized? Government takeover? There's not even a public option like in the original plans - that would have allowed the 'government takeover' shout to have actual weight or merit (although it was treated that way anyhoo). Socialized, nationalized? Nope, still private companies in a profit model - just actually playing by rules now.
    - Job-Killing - minor stroke of genius here. Take a policy that is currently costing people their savings, their livelihood, and in some cases their lives - when they are denied/dropped/run out of coverage - and use that same verb (killing) to describe the FIX's effect....on employment! Nice spin, complete 180. Factual - well no, it's all opinion, with tons of economists and anaylists coming down on all sides. But a powerful statement, and just like pro-life, making being against it seem to benefit you, when in reality it takes away your rights and freedoms.
    - Illegal Immigrant coverage - heard this a lot, that immigrants will be covered. Remember the 'you lie' episode, with that south carolina classless hick that became a Repub hero? Yah - try to find it in the bill. Double dog dare you.
    - Death Panels - the assumption was that this was government-run panels that would decide when seniors could no longer get medication or treatment. Great, great statement to induce fear. Factual basis - none. Not in the bill. The real genius of this is that it's a double whammy - got people all scared about something that not only wasn't in the bill as a government program - but DOES happen today in the private industry! Take something dastardly terrible, spin it to seem like a new concept attached to the bill, while completely fabricating the entire thing. Congratulations, misinformation - awards go to Sarah Palin and Faux.

    This isn't rocket science, guys. Things that the industry actually did, from 1970 through 2010, and comparing them with slanted statements to outright lies - these are not equal thoughts. Trying to put them on equal footing gives the benefit to the side that is complet bullsh*t, and it's not something I'm willing to do.

    Political discourse has been catering to the ignorant for a decade now, and it's time to end it. If you don't know how the bill works, how healthcare works, how insurance companies work, and how to spot a complete fu*king lie versus an example from real life experience - then either figure it out, or keep silent to not embarrass yourself.
    I understand your frustration. However Americans consider ignorance a right at this point so you can forget about any civil discourses based on the facts!
    Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are .

  13. #58
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    Re: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wassit3 View Post
    I understand your frustration. However Americans consider ignorance a right at this point so you can forget about any civil discourses based on the facts!
    Not only is it a right. It's somehow something to be celebrated.

    As AOW said in his first two paragraphs,

    This is an argument tactic ... to completely make up bullsh*t out of thin air, and when called out on it and hit with facts, to seek to equate the two, or say they're both opinions, or viewpoints, or equally untrue.

    like saying Luke Scott is entitled to his opinion on Obama's being a kenyan. I don't know why the level of discourse has taken this ridiculous turn in the last 10 years, but non-factual, ignorant statements or thoughts have no place on the same level as facts.
    This is the biggest problem. The inability to, or willful disregard for, discern(ing) fact from opinion. How many times has someone heard (or read), "That's my opinion, and my opinion can't be wrong because it's my opinion"? Well, your opinion can be wrong.
    *Required disclaimer: I've been wrong. I'll be wrong in the future. I'm subject to making mistakes. I'm human-and everything that goes along with that.

    I blame (because there always has to be someone to blame)...wait for it...religion. This is why I'm so outspoken against religion and more anti-theist than atheist. Religion is the ultimate 'Nya-nya-nya',-fingers-in-ears,-'I-don't-care-what-you-and-your-'science'-or-'facts'-or-'theories'-say-because-I-believe-what-I-believe-and-I-believe-that-my-beliefs-are-true opinion. For example, no amount of facts, data, science, reason, common sense or compassion can convince SOME (not all. Certainly none of the fine examples of homo sapiens that frequent this forum) religious that homosexuality isn't an abomination. Religion teaches people that their opinion is more important than fact.

    But, far from a doomsday sayer claiming that ignorance is at an all-time high and the end of civilization is nigh, I claim that ignorance is probably at an all time low-proportionally-about 90 or so percent. Of course in total volume we are probably at an all time high. 90% of 7 billion is lots of pooled ignorance.

    I'm not claiming that [local forum member who believes in a god] is an idiot. Far from it. That person could very well be more intelligent than I am, for all that I know. I'm not saying that I'm smarter than everyone who is so 'stupid' for believing in a god. There are plenty of 'believer' scientists, doctors, Burger King workers, etc who believe in a god that are plenty smarter than me. I am saying that most people (including atheists, including myself) are not taught how to think rationally and really separate the truth from the ******** out there-while a good portion of people ARE taught to actively deny the truth and hold white-knuckle-tight on to superstition, fairy tale, belief and opinion until the day that they die, and beyond.

  14. #59
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    Re: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

    Well said, Fili.
    derp

  15. #60
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    Re: Official "What are you thinking about right now?" (Political Version)

    Mitt Romney, Sarah Palin, Mike Huckabee... and Michele Bachmann in 2012?

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