It wouldn't surprise or shock me, but I'm not going to hurl around baseless accusations, even if they're just "questions", either.Originally Posted by dickay
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It wouldn't surprise or shock me, but I'm not going to hurl around baseless accusations, even if they're just "questions", either.
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who has hurled accusations? he asked if we knew anything about him. I quoted that I "guessing" he's possibly older than he claims since thats been the norm with many latin players. I even heard something once that its become the norm for front offices to add 1 to 2 years to the "reported" age of latin players when evaluating an offer or attempt to acquire them. Its very common for some latin countries to, at an early age, alter an athletes listed age...from what i've heard.
again, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't accuse him of lying. But based upon prior precedent, i'm guessing its very possibly the case and would not in the least be surprised if it is so. And I'd bet a good fortune that most front offices look at it in the same manner.
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this.
If it came out that this player was 30, or that Pujols did roids for example...I wouldn't be shocked, but I am not going to bring it up ever in discussion when I have no reason to believe it could be true. You can't just stereotype everybody.
By this same logic dickay, it's like saying all black people steal things because a black guy robbed a liquor store 3000 miles away....if you are going to stereotype and bring it up in discussion, then you are setting yourself up for those same accusations. In life, stereotypes may often be true, but I am not going to spend a life sheltered, assuming that everybody does what my predetermined senses assume. If I did that, I wouldn't have a career.
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Except it hasn't been the norm, and you brought it up...I never asked anything about the players age etc. I just asked if he compares to anybody and if anybody KNOWS anything about him....you made up an assumption based on knowing that a small number of players in the history of baseball from the Dominican have lied about their ages....when only one player, from Cuba has....and maybe you don't realize this, but the list of Dominican/Cuban/Caribbean ball players is well over 1000, yet you provided a list of about 12 players who have lied.....what's the majority?
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I don't see what the big difference is between "I'm guessing he's 30 not 25" and accusing him of being 30.
There's a difference between "Latin countries" and "Dominican Republic." 95% of the cases I've seen have been from the D.R. Putting every Latin American player under the same veil of speculation isn't fair, and I don't think front offices do what you say they do. They no doubt investigate if they have reason to believe a player's age is being misreported, but it wouldn't be the least bit prudent of them to automatically assume every single player from any Latin American country is older than listed (especially considering that in some cases, the players have been YOUNGER than listed).
I wouldn't be "surprised" if he's older than 25, but I'm not going to "guess" or assume so without even a tiny shred of evidence, especially considering he's from Cuba where records are much more accurately kept as compared to the D.R.
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heres an LA Times article on it;
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/feb...sp-dominicans1
Why would the team investigate that if they didn't question it? standard protocol i bet, and they do the same with American born athletes right?Dozens of baseball players, major leaguers and minor leaguers alike, aged virtually overnight last winter, when an immigration crackdown after Sept. 11 uncovered discrepancies in birth certificates.
But now, with the opening of spring training only weeks away, it's apparent that the U.S. State Department's recent enforcement of a zero-tolerance policy toward false visa documentation has led to an even deeper identity crisis in the game. According to Major League Baseball, 180 players from the Dominican played in the minor leagues under false names last season.
In all, Major League Baseball has found about 550 cases of fraudulent identity -- either false birth dates or names -- for Latin American players in the last two years, 99% of them from the Dominican Republic.
"I can't say I was shocked," said Tye Waller, the Padre player development director whose internal audit of his system found 18 players using fake names. "But I was surprised by the number of guys who got away with it."
Players from impoverished countries such as the Dominican, a tiny, baseball-crazed Caribbean island where the per capita income is $1,600 a year, are often encouraged to lie about their ages by family members or buscones, the independent scouts who scour the nation for talent, arrange tryouts and deliver players to teams or agents.
A 16-year-old with a strong throwing arm or home run-hitting power is deemed to have far more potential and would garner a higher signing bonus than a 21-year-old with the same tools.
The Dodgers, for instance, agreed to give 17-year-old Jonathan Corporan a $930,000 signing bonus last April, but the deal was put on hold pending confirmation of the pitcher's age and identity. In late August, Corporan was found to be 21-year-old Reyes Soto, and Soto signed for $150,000.
cmon now, lets be honest. You know as well as I do that MLB teams "question" the validity of Ruiz and all latin players coming over, and likely have additional validity checks to investigate them. I hope at least i'm not telling you guys something you don't already know. Yes Jeffy, i listed 12 guys initially. As you can see from this article its a far more extensive issue, and we're only talking about the ones caught.
you guys can live in the dark if you'd like. When I see a latin player coming to MLB, yes....i question the validity of their age. considering the insane frequency at which this has occurred, its only prudent to do so and is nothing MLB front offices don't do as well.
I can't believe this was this big an issue...but i guess you two are on self-righteous kicks today.
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You bolded that, here's some further emphasis. In fact, that entire piece you quoted was entirely about the D.R.In all, Major League Baseball has found about 550 cases of fraudulent identity -- either false birth dates or names -- for Latin American players in the last two years, 99% of them from the Dominican Republic.
o
I never said they don't investigate. I said they don't assume without reason. Of course they have to confirm the pitcher's age and identity. And, yes, they do do that for those born in America - it's just easier and quicker.The Dodgers, for instance, agreed to give 17-year-old Jonathan Corporan a $930,000 signing bonus last April, but the deal was put on hold pending confirmation of the pitcher's age and identity. In late August, Corporan was found to be 21-year-old Reyes Soto, and Soto signed for $150,000.
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DR != Cuba.
DR does not stand for all Latin american countries.
It is an example of one, not the epitome and standard of latin american countries.
Man, I wonder if we get stereotyped this bad around the globe. If someone in uruguay or deep in the congo assumes all white people eat caviar, wear tophats and use monocles.
Taking the normal steps to verify ages is prudent and normal for a front office.
Assuming that everyone with darker skin is a lying piece of ****, and adjusting accordingly, is not typical front office policy.
Good thing is, if you date someone from every latin american country, you learn a lot about the differences real fast. And have lots of fun and good food while doing it!
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OMG, did I say it only happened with cuban or DR players? no, i said latin. Do i really need to again post examples of cuban players where its happened? No...it clearly has happened. There are far more DR players in america than Cuban. The article was not only about DR players, they were speaking in terms of Latin American players and did so on more than one occassion.
And no, I don't agree with you that MLB front offices have the same approach and concern about American age authenticity as they do Latin American age authenticity. I certainly believe they question it more, and investigate it more thoroughly. I think its naive to believe they take a players posted age at face value considering the multitude of times they've proven inaccurate and the climate to alter ages that we know exists in many of those latin countries.
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Yet they said that 99% of the cases are from D.R., and the D.R. is the only country mentioned in the article and it is mentioned repeatedly. "Latin America" is said once, and it's in the sentence stating that 99% of Latin American cases were from the D.R.
They don't take it at face value. They take the necessary steps to confirm it, as they do with every player. Obviously, with Americans, it's really quick and easy. With foreign nations, it's a more complicated process. Most foreign nations, though, have good records. The D.R.'s record-keeping is very haphazard and that is why nearly every case is from the D.R.
Yes, there have been some Cuban cases. That doesn't mean that every Cuban should be treated with the same suspicion as D.R. players. That's like saying every American should be treated with suspiscion because Kirby Puckett and some other players had incorrect ages listed.
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Whenever you hire somebody, no matter where, you need to know their age and authenicate that. Regardless where they are from....and that is most likely exactly what MLB front offices do with a player whether he is from California, Canada, the D.R. or Cuba....it doesn't make a difference.
Just because it has happened in the past doesn't mean it is going to be the nature of every player that comes up.
Again, you brought up his age, no one else did, and thus far, El-duque is the only Cuban born MLB player to have his age be incorrect that we know of. Just skimming the rest of that list, those are all D.R. players.
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so, again my question.
What do we KNOW about this player?
o
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Jose_Ruiz
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from that information alone, I wonder if he can play defense well enough to play somewhere other than first.
Because as a first basemen, those numbers don't likely translate into much of a big league bat. And at 25, he is sort of getting kind of old to be a prospect.
I would want to know if he can play other positions well enough to consider taking a chance on him.
And he was never good enough to make the national team, just their B squad....I wonder why anyone would pay much to have him.
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