Which player found guilty of taking steroids/ PEDs would shock you the most?

[HoustonGM]

...and so is female fertility drugs lmfao. does anyone question if Manny was using something other than them?

Yes.

[dickay]

Yes.

ok...well, not only do I think its naive to believe steroids don't help performance. let me update those to include that I believe its naive to think all Manny took was female fertility drugs since them alone would be pretty pointless.

You left out of your post my question if anyone wonders why mlb has them banned, so I assume you know why.

but keep believing that HGH usage doesn't help you at all. Thats not incorrect...though kind of a pointless thought process since HGH isn't used by athletes alone.

I dont' know why people wish to try so hard to find things that will make them believe these substances haven't improved performance?

[HoustonGM]

ok...well, not only do I think its naive to believe steroids don't help performance.

Who here is saying that?

let me update those to include that I believe its naive to think all Manny took was female fertility drugs since them alone would be pretty pointless.

I don't think his story is completely implausible.

You left out of your post my question if anyone wonders why mlb has them banned, so I assume you know why.

Of course I know why.

but keep believing that HGH usage doesn't help you at all. Thats not incorrect...though kind of a pointless thought process since HGH isn't used by athletes alone.

I've never claimed that HGH usage "doesn't help you at all." I've posted links to articles and studies from multiple sources that conclude that HGH will not improve athletic performance.

I dont' know why people wish to try so hard to find things that will make them believe these substances haven't improved performance?

Who's wishing that?

[dickay]

while i'm not getting into that game....here is another link which much better explains many of the benefits of HGH, and more importantly, why some who have taken them believe they don't help. You can all continue believing the crap that HGH doesn't help (which isn't refuted because HGH alone is not what players are doing) or you can read this and the dozens of articles like it and actually get educated to just how beneficial this drug is when used properly;

http://www.anabolicsteroidsguide.com...files/hgh.html

[OregonDuck1989]

I said Griffey but I meant to click other and put Nick Punto.

But thinking about it. I wouldn't be shocked if Nick Punto was found guilty of taking steroids. I would be shocked however if he was actually taking steroids. I believe his body creates all that extra testosterone naturally.

[HoustonGM]

while i'm not getting into that game....here is another link which much better explains many of the benefits of HGH, and more importantly, why some who have taken them believe they don't help. You can all continue believing the crap that HGH doesn't help (which isn't refuted because HGH alone is not what players are doing) or you can read this and the dozens of articles like it and actually get educated to just how beneficial this drug is when used properly;

http://www.anabolicsteroidsguide.com...files/hgh.html

I skimmed that and it doesn't seem to be dealing with the specific issue of whether or not HGH itself increases athletic performance. It talks about how it is beneficial to combine HGH with other substances like steroids as HGH may help prevent injury that steroids may be a factor in and such.

I have never claimed that HGH isn't beneficial to athletes or that it isn't beneficial in certain ways when combined with other drugs. I've been convinced by what I've read that HGH itself does not improve athletic performance. And, note, HGH can be beneficial while not enhancing performance, so I'm not denying that it can provide benefits to a player.

I can also take that last part of your post and flip it around and it'd still be equally valid:

You can all continue believing the crap that HGH does help or you can read this and the dozens of articles like it and actually get educated to the effects of the drug.

(insert link to article/study about HGH not improving athletic performance)

[Jeffy25]

Yes.

This, and we have had countless conversations about why Manny's drug was likely to help him cycle off of roids or some other drug and thus why it is tested for.

We are well aware dickay. Pretty sure HGH is against the rules as well. HGM simply pointed out that there aren't any directly performance improving benefits tested from doing HGH.

[Jeffy25]

I said Griffey but I meant to click other and put Nick Punto.

But thinking about it. I wouldn't be shocked if Nick Punto was found guilty of taking steroids. I would be shocked however if he was actually taking steroids. I believe his body creates all that extra testosterone naturally.

I would be hurt if I found out. I believe he would test positive just because of the testosterone levels that his body creates naturally, I bet the test would think he had been taking roids when in fact he had not been.

[Wassit3]

Bob Uecker for obvious reasons

[actionjackson]

Blizzard conditions in this thread with all your snowjobbing dickay. You haven't addressed my previous comment at all. Specifically:

1) What is this incredible ability that you have to be able to see through all the changes that have happened in baseball (detailed in prior post, not willing to regurgitate here) even in the last 2 or 3 decades that allows you to see through every last one of them and determine: "must be the 'roids/other PEDs" over all of the other changes and factors? Is it 100% PEDs? 50? 25? 10? There are a sh!t-tonne of factors involved in the improvements in hitting over the last little while, yet to you it's perfectly alright to throw out every single other factor and go with the easiest solution, which also conveniently allows you (and many others) to play judge, jury and executioner. Must be nice, but it's not that fu(king simple.

2) None of the links you have provided us with have specifically discussed baseball and how it is that bigger biceps lead to better power hitting results. I'm of the opinion that the bulk leads to less flexibility, which I would think would be a detriment in something with as many moving parts as the baseball swing. I think that bulk might be able to help short term, but long term a player will break down as their muscles outgrow the ligaments and tendons that were designed to work with them and they will become injury hazards.

3) You dance all around Brady Anderson's 1996 season and while we're at it let's throw Luis Gonzalez' 2001 season under the bus too...You know you wan-na. They must have been doing 'roids right? Ever heard of an outlier? Those two seasons could have been outliers in the careers of one good to very good player (Gonzo) and one average player (Brady). Should we throw out all outlier seasons in history because they're "suspicious"? Scooby says: "Ruh-roh", guess now we'll have to throw out St. Roger Maris' (wasn't always a saint, but now he is; funny how that happens...) 1961 season too then.

4) How is that the same class of drugs can produce the one year wonders (Gonzo and Brady), the 5 years of "And the hits just keep on comin'" players (Bonds, McGwire, Sosa), the spike for two years, drop off for five years and spike again for three years (all while allegedly being on the same drug regimen) players like Roger Clemens and the steady as she goes players (Palmeiro)? I mean I know they're magical and everything, but this is almost in the same league as the magic bullet theory. Did the drugs really work for Clemens in Toronto, stop working for him with the Yankees and then work for him again in Houston? Ok, so I guess they only work in certain cities then.

5) How do you explain the many different body types that have been successful hitters/power hitters throughout the history of the game? It isn't just one body type. It's not just the muscle bound carnival freaks that showed up in the '90's and '00's. There are all kinds. I listed a few in the previous post and to them I'll add Mel "Master Melvin" Ott who was all of 5'9" 170 lbs and still whacked 511 HR in his HoF career or even Willie "The Say Hey Kid" Mays who was 5'11" 180 lbs and yet is still 4th on the all-time HR list with 660. There is so much more to the physics of the baseball swing than brute strength and bulging biceps.

Were there players doing PEDs in the "steroid era"? It's abundantly clear that there were. An exact figure will remain impossible to determine. Until you can conclusively prove that this "cheating" in fact helps baseball players prosper, you can't prove that their records are "tainted". Show me that PEDs create better hitters, pitchers and fielders. Is it possible to be a fan who's happy that penalties for PED violations are being enforced and still be able to recognize the stars of the "steroid era". Of course it's possible because I'm one of them and though I can't speak for him, I'm pretty sure HGM is one of them as well. I wish it had never happened, but it did and I'm not willing to throw out the entire era because of it.

[MichelleWie]

Never heard of the Cards fan complaining about the Brewers celebrating, no. But I don't join them in their sentiment, and I don't think many Cardinals fans would either.

the only Brewer I actually hate, is Tom Hardicourt and his pathetic homer votes. Ryan Braun, I don't really like, and I don't like Solomon Torres that much....the Brewers as a whole? I see them as harmless as the Cubbies.

You must not follow the Cards to closely then... It's everytime they play it's brought up. I'm glad you see us as harmless. I don't blame you. But for some reason your team and your fans are obsessed with the US. I just find it funny. BTW Hardicourt isn't a Brewer and I also find it funny that you criticize him for being a homer while you admittingly hand job both Mcgwire and Pujois. Solomon Torres retired a few years ago also. Here is a very good article from your buddy Hardicourt about the whinny Cards.

[haveacigar]

PEDs could be responsible for making players better without they themselves improving baseball skill.

That is to say, a player who takes PED can train harder, longer, and better. that is not up for dispute. It is also not really disputable that more practice = being better.

Therefore, a player who takes PEDs but doesn't in any way change his training regimen might not see a change, suggesting that the PED does not create any benefit. At the same time, another player who takes PEDs and correspondingly changes his training regimen might see a drastic change, suggesting that while the PED itself did not create the increased performance, it enabled other practices which increased performance.

It is this distinction which is being addressed with scientific studies, research, and discussion. The point is not to argue that PEDs have no effect, and thus should be completely legal.

[kenny1234]

I think that it is pointless to argue that any PED is useless for baseball. They tend to be taken in conjunction with other drugs, they affect health, possible training regimens and strength. The studies that HGM is posting indicate that HGH has little direct effect if taken alone - but it isn't clear that is how the players are using it. The only evidence that I need for the benefits of PEDs is that a large number of players were willing to take them, they have no obvious alternative benefit, and they are risky. As HAC says, that effect may come through health effects, ability to train more, or a number of other things. Everyone is better off if they are banned, and tested for, as then players can compete on an even playing field without having to take a risky drug.

That said, I think that it is incredibly foolish to attribute specific performances to PEDs, or to worry about what performances would have been without steroids. Anderson's performance in 1996 was an outlier, but if it was actually because of steroids - why did he stop taking them? Basically, we have no idea what would have happened in an alternative world without PEDs, and it would be impossible to figure it out.

[MeetDaMets]

i voted other,

I would be MOST surprised if i heard Juan Pierre was on roids.

LOL

[MeetDaMets]

Bob Uecker for obvious reasons

this is a good choice as well. i may have to re consider my position.

but you didnt provide enough stats to convince me