Which player found guilty of taking steroids/ PEDs would shock you the most?

[MichelleWie]

Good let me take this opportunity to blast the Cardinals organization. What is their problem with Milwaukee?? We're little piss ants compared to St. Louis. Yet Cardinals and their fans are always whining about Milwaukee . They cry because we untuck our shirts on the field when we win. They cried about the celebration we did against SF when prince walked off!! It wasn't even against them and they were still crying! I remember one of the last games of the 2007 season LaRussa whining that we were throwing at one of Cardinals. LaRussa is a great manager but a pathetic person. I still hate the Cubs more, but the Cardinals are the biggest whiners in the league.

[dickay]

excerpts from an SI article with Ken Caminiti;

Yet Caminiti, a recovering alcoholic and former drug user, defended his use of steroids and said he would not discourage others from taking them because they have become a widely accepted--even necessary--choice for ballplayers looking for a competitive edge and financial security. "I've made a ton of mistakes," said Caminiti. "I don't think using steroids is one of them.

"It's no secret what's going on in baseball. At least half the guys are using steroids. They talk about it. They joke about it with each other. The guys who want to protect themselves or their image by lying have that right. Me? I'm at the point in my career where I've done just about every bad thing you can do. I try to walk with my head up. I don't have to hold my tongue. I don't want to hurt teammates or friends. But I've got nothing to hide.

"If a young player were to ask me what to do," Caminiti continued, "I'm not going to tell him it's bad. Look at all the money in the game: You have a chance to set your family up, to get your daughter into a better school.... So I can't say, 'Don't do it,' not when the guy next to you is as big as a house and he's going to take your job and make the money."

I think there's alot of honesty in these comments. He was not under investigation, or media scrutiny, or Federal jury investigations. This was before roids were even on the map as a major issue. But thats just me I guess

[KowboyKoop]

excerpts from an SI article with Ken Caminiti;


I think there's alot of honesty in these comments. He was not under investigation, or media scrutiny, or Federal jury investigations. This was before roids were even on the map as a major issue. But thats just me I guess

And then he died at age 41 from an enlarged heart, among other factors.

Good choices Ken!!

[actionjackson]

I don't personally need substantial proof to sell me that PED's were very commonly used throughout much of baseball over the past decade and a half. There is enough circumstantial evidence for that...at least for me anyway.

I also don't need proof to believe that ROIDS and HGH can give an improvement in performance. Despite a lack of medical evidence on this matter, I feel its naive to think otherwise. In a great player, even a slight improvement to confidence, bat speed, etc. can IMO yield marketable gains in performance.

But to each their own. I choose not to live in the dark and believe this stuff never happened and it doesn't help.

Let's do a hypothetical. Player X starts juicing with steroids. On day 1 after his first injection he works out and "notices" a significant change. Being a "dumb jock" he idiotically attributes it to that first injection, when in fact it's probably the placebo effect. If you're told that these things are going to allow you to heal faster, lift more etc, you'll attribute everything that happens in that vein to the drugs and disregard things that don't reinforce that belief. By the time the effects of the drugs kick in maybe the player has already established an intense workout routine. The drugs would probably make it easier to stay with that routine, but that does not discount the fact that discipline and hard work are required to get results. You can't just sit on your ass playing Play Station and Nintendo (ahem! I mean Mogul) and wait for them to work or you're going to get fat...

...Which of course leads into point number two. Players of all shapes and sizes, except for the aforementioned Eddie Gaedel, have excelled at hitting and power hitting throughout the years. Babe Ruth was "fat". I wouldn't have called him that to his face, but by today's standards he was. He's number 2 on the all-time AB/HR list behind the reviled Mark McGwire. Mickey Mantle is number 16 on the all-time AB/HR list and is credited with two of the longest HR in major league history. A 656 footer at Washington's Griffith Stadium on April 17, 1953 and a 634 footer at Detroit's Briggs Stadium on September 10, 1960. He's listed as a 5'11" 198 pound Oklahoma farmboy for God's sake. Where did all that power come from? Hank Aaron, the all-time HR king before everyone's favourite Satan came along and broke his record, was a 6'0" 180 pounder from Alabama. Where did his power come from? It was in his wrists, which he developed while working on an ice truck as a kid. So we have a "fatso", a smallish farmboy, and a guy with incredibly strong wrists in this group of three of the most feared HR hitters ever. Ted Williams (6'3" 205 lbs) and a lot of hitting greats had better than 20/20 vision. It goes on and on, but what do we focus on? The pythons baby! Bulging biceps may help you out at the beach (I wouldn't know), but do they beyond a shadow of a doubt help a hitter? I understand their application in sprinting and football, but I see them hindering the baseball swing, almost as much as I see them helping it. There are so many moving parts in a swing and every hitter's swing is different, whereas football and sprinting are much more straight forward and straight ahead.

Don't forget about all the changes in the baseball over the years. It ain't the same piece of mush that it was back in the deadball days when they tried to use one and only one for the whole game. MLB has denied every single one of these changes (talk about a cover-up!), yet the circumstantial evidence is there, the most recent one appearing to come between 1992 and 1994, since which power and run scoring have remained at a reasonable constant with the normal ups and downs that one would expect. One independent study i.e. not MLB funded confirms that 1995 and 2000 baseballs and their "pills" (or cores) bounce at least 33% higher than balls and their pills from 1963, 1970, and 1989.

There are myriad additional explanations for the perception of an offensive spike: year-round training, smaller stadiums, improved bat technology etc. But we can't get away from the pythons baby! It's all about the pythons! C'mon, it just isn't that fu(king simple. Oh, and get off your high horse. If daring to question the hyperbole spewing from the mouths of venomous, jealous sports "journalists" most of whom last I checked probably don't have degrees in chemistry and probably dropped it as soon as they could in high school is "living in the dark", then lock me up in a fu(king dark room. Just don't treat me like a mushroom and feed me this sh!t. Winky smilie right back at ya.

[Jeffy25]

Good let me take this opportunity to blast the Cardinals organization. What is their problem with Milwaukee?? We're little piss ants compared to St. Louis. Yet Cardinals and their fans are always whining about Milwaukee . They cry because we untuck our shirts on the field when we win. They cried about the celebration we did against SF when prince walked off!! It wasn't even against them and they were still crying! I remember one of the last games of the 2007 season LaRussa whining that we were throwing at one of Cardinals. LaRussa is a great manager but a pathetic person. I still hate the Cubs more, but the Cardinals are the biggest whiners in the league.

I have zero issues with the Brewers.

Actually went to a game with a buddy who flew in from cali and was staying the week in stl for a conference...so we caught a few games, and he brought 3 brewers fans with them....they were great guys.

Brewers are harmless as well. I don't know why some Cardinals fans are jerks to the Brewers, or think it's a rivalry. It isn't. I am not a Ryan Braun fan, but I think Prince Fielder is awesome. If we didn't have Pujols, Fielder would be the first basemen I would want.


I love LaRussa, guess we have our personal differences. LaRussa always gets up in arms if he thinks a player is thrown at. He benched Thompson this year for throwing at a Met for 5 games and fined him. He has a zero tolerance policy if he thinks someone is being thrown at, he has always been like that...even in Oakland years.

I was happy the Brewers finally made the playoffs. It's good for the N.L. Central to have some competition, it wouldn't be any fun if we just won the N.L. central every year. It's fun to have games on the schedule that you look forward to and meaningful games in September, and the Brewers give us that, same with the Cubs.

I don't want to see opposing players celebrating on my field, of course, but who does? I don't recall the instances that are you discussing, but that's a shame if there are Cardinal fans complaining about that, they shouldn't be.

If I am arrogant in anyway, it's that I think Cardinals fans as a whole are some of the best down to earth people in baseball. But there are a ton of bad apples out there that do, and say stupid and retarded **** to other fans and other teams....and it's unacceptable if you ask me.

But I have been down that road on this forum before, and everyone basically thought I was insane because the way I think the game should be treated and respected....so oh well. I hate booing, I hate balls being thrown back into play, I hate people being critical of other teams. I think it's poor sportmanship. Most the people on here probably think of it as a part of the game. I believe you as a fan, go out, you support your team, you support your player's, and if you get beat, you shake your opponents hand and leave respectfully while trying to figure out how to beat them next time.

Kaden wears Cubs and Cardinals shirts all the time. His mother and Uncle are Cubs fans, i am obviously a die hard Cards fan, and it will not be an issue. He will treat both teams with respect, and respect the game the way it is intended to be respected. There isn't room in baseball for whining, crying, complaining and booing. You don't like seeing another team celebrate? Then learn how to beat them.



and to continue with TLR...Bernie M. (my least fav Cardinals reporter) wrote a negative piece on Cubs fans a few years ago, and Tony refused to talk to him anymore after that. Bernie for a long time, was not allowed in the post game interviews etc. TLR expects other teams to be respected as well. So I am not sure if there was a miscommunication error or something, but generally, TLR handles things about as well as you can ask.

[rockiesfan4ever]

Helton

[actionjackson]

Good let me take this opportunity to blast the Cardinals organization. What is their problem with Milwaukee?? We're little piss ants compared to St. Louis. Yet Cardinals and their fans are always whining about Milwaukee . They cry because we untuck our shirts on the field when we win. They cried about the celebration we did against SF when prince walked off!! It wasn't even against them and they were still crying! I remember one of the last games of the 2007 season LaRussa whining that we were throwing at one of Cardinals. LaRussa is a great manager but a pathetic person. I still hate the Cubs more, but the Cardinals are the biggest whiners in the league.

"Hey (hiccup), don't you know who I am? (hiccup)"

[MichelleWie]

Here Jeffrey: You post was to long to Quote but:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/42498917.html
http://brewersfandemonium.yuku.com/t...espectful.html
http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/bir...omment-page-3/
I don't have time to post more. But just google it. Their is alot of stuuff. Cardinals hating the Brewers celebrating and stuff like that. I find it hard to believe you have never heard it before??

[TheNamelessPoet]

I have never heard it b4

[200tang]

Even if all Cards fans hated the Brewers, why does that matter?

Pretty sure most casual Red Sox fans hate everything the Yankees do, even if it's against an NL team.

[Jeffy25]

Here Jeffrey: You post was to long to Quote but:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/42498917.html
http://brewersfandemonium.yuku.com/t...espectful.html
http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/bir...omment-page-3/
I don't have time to post more. But just google it. Their is alot of stuuff. Cardinals hating the Brewers celebrating and stuff like that. I find it hard to believe you have never heard it before??

Never heard of the Cards fan complaining about the Brewers celebrating, no. But I don't join them in their sentiment, and I don't think many Cardinals fans would either.

the only Brewer I actually hate, is Tom Hardicourt and his pathetic homer votes. Ryan Braun, I don't really like, and I don't like Solomon Torres that much....the Brewers as a whole? I see them as harmless as the Cubbies.

[HoustonGM]

And then he died at age 41 from an enlarged heart, among other factors.

Good choices Ken!!

I think it's safe to assume steroids played little to no role in his death. He died while under the influence of cocaine and opiates.

My vote: Other - Nobody.

[HoustonGM]

Links on HGH that I think people need to read:

http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomi...er-should-you/
http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/04/...rowth-hormone/
http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomi...h-in-baseball/

[HoustonGM]

Looking over this list, though....I'd say that Cal Ripken and Nolan Ryan are the two players on this list that I'd be the LEAST surprised about.

[Jeffy25]

Links on HGH that I think people need to read:

http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomi...er-should-you/
http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/04/...rowth-hormone/
http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomi...h-in-baseball/

interesting, so basically we shouldn't worry about HGH because the performance enhancing capabilities are little to none.