Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee

[haveacigar]

Well, Raffy is getting the shaft because of roids. Forget him, no one's voting for him after that **** he pulled in front of Congress.

Of Bagwell, Walker, Palmeiro, Olerud, and Brown, I really think only Bagwell and Palmeiro deserve it. Olerud didn't have the longevity, neither did Brown. Walker wasn't doing anything special until he got to Colorado. Bagwell played as long as Olerud but his numbers are just so ridiculous that he gets in. Palmeiro has all the numbers, but you know how that's gonna go.

[kenny1234]

A position player that is somewhat like Blyleven is Palmeiro - rarely or never the best first baseman in the league, but spent an extremely long time near the top. Not a perfect comparison, but somewhat similar, and I'll think that you'll hear similar arguments, along with the steroid issue, when Palmeiro is on the ballot.

[actionjackson]

I don't really agree with the requirement that you have to be the "best" at any one thing or during any one period of time to be in the hall of fame. Sam Crawford was one of the top 30 hitters ever. He also spent a large portion of his career being the second best outfielder on his own team.

If you produce at an exceptional level, you belong in the hall, regardless of who else was also being exceptional at the time.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Sticking with the Tiger theme how about Alan Trammell? He played in the shadow of Ripken and Yount in his own league and to a certain extent Larkin in the other league. Does that reduce his greatness somehow? Not in my world. A better example at the same position would be Bill Dahlen, whose only fault was having the gall to play in the same era as Honus Wagner and George Davis. He's the 3rd best SS of his era and probably the 6th best SS of all-time, 5th when you consider that A-Rod will be a 3B when it's all said and done. He is also hands down the best eligible position player who is not yet in the HOF...and it's coming up on 100 years since he retired. Now if anyone's got a right to be pi$$ed, albeit from the grave, it's Dahlen. The argument of best player at his position in his era is so ridiculously flawed and these two players demonstrate that.

[Jeffy25]

Interesting question:

Will he wear an Expo or a Cub hat?

11 years as an Expo
6 years as a Cubbie

MVP as a Cubbie....he just said he is not really sure yet.

[Jeffy25]

It's a shame that the turf wore out his knees so bad, because had he stayed in center field his whole career and sustained average or better defense, he'd be a more than deserving HoFer, but injuries happen.

He also had a devastating football injury before he made the pros as a ball player....he said he never ran the same.....can you imagine what kind of player he COULD have been?

[haveacigar]

A position player that is somewhat like Blyleven is Palmeiro - rarely or never the best first baseman in the league, but spent an extremely long time near the top. Not a perfect comparison, but somewhat similar, and I'll think that you'll hear similar arguments, along with the steroid issue, when Palmeiro is on the ballot.

That's pretty creepy because I just wrote the following on another message board:

Blyleven is kinda like the pitching version of Rafael Palmeiro (not counting the roids, obviously). The reason Blyleven doesn't get the respect he deserves is because no one really considered Blyleven to be the best pitcher at any given time, mainly because he played on a lot of mediocre teams which kept his win totals low. But you look at the totality of his career, he threw 5,000 innings of 3.30 ERA ball. He's got all the career numbers you'd find in a hall of famer.

Palmeiro is the same way, 3000 hits and 500 home runs but no one really thought of him as the best hitter in the game at any point. He just had a really long career of being really good, and he probably would've taken the same circuitous route to the Hall that Blyleven is taking. Of course, thanks to his performance in front of Congress and his subsequent drug test failure, I doubt he'll last very long.

[gosensgo101]

When I think Dawson, I think Expo, but I'm Canadian, so that probobly effects my thinking quite a bit.

[haveacigar]

Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Sticking with the Tiger theme how about Alan Trammell? He played in the shadow of Ripken and Yount in his own league and to a certain extent Larkin in the other league. Does that reduce his greatness somehow? Not in my world. A better example at the same position would be Bill Dahlen, whose only fault was having the gall to play in the same era as Honus Wagner and George Davis. He's the 3rd best SS of his era and probably the 6th best SS of all-time, 5th when you consider that A-Rod will be a 3B when it's all said and done. He is also hands down the best eligible position player who is not yet in the HOF...and it's coming up on 100 years since he retired. Now if anyone's got a right to be pi$$ed, albeit from the grave, it's Dahlen. The argument of best player at his position in his era is so ridiculously flawed and these two players demonstrate that.

Trammell is more or less the 80s version of Barry Larkin. They both need to be in the hall.

[kenny1234]

I can't wait for next year when Jeff Bagwell, Larry Walker, Rafael Palmeiro, John Olerud (borderline, but IMHO a better overall player than Dawson), and Kevin Brown get added. The ballot will be swimming with legitimate HOFers and one borderline case. By my count there will be 11 legit HOFers plus Olerud on the ballot

Interestingly, CHONE WAR has Olerud and Dawson in a virtual tie at 56.6 and 56.8 WAR (Dawson in the lead by a nose). My guess is that Alomar and Blyleven will probably get in next year. Bagwell, Larkin, and Raines will probably do OK but not get elected while Brown and Olerud get shuffled to the bottom of the ballot. Palmeiro will join McGwire on the steroid sidelines, at least until Bonds is eligible. But all the guys that are close will stay on the ballot - though the bottom end players should get run off the ballot (guys like Murphy, Baines, Mattingly and Parker).

[Jeffy25]

Quote from a phone-in maroon on local sports station: "It is a travesty that Joe Carter isn't still on the HOF ballot" Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! LOL. We're up to three callers now who think Joe Carter is a HOFer...FML...Goddamn hockey market hoser know nothings.

Then it devolved into a discussion where the host ripped into the fact that Keith Hernandez finished ahead of Joe Carter on the ballot in 2004. Uh yeah, and Hernandez should have gone on to further years on the ballot and should probably have eventually gone in, but Joe Carter was a horrible baseball player. A 16 year career with a 16.4 career WAR. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, a 1.0 WAR/season player is considered a HOFer in these parts. There was even a quote from Joe Carter from January, 2004 saying he was "shocked" he'd been knocked off the ballot. Um, that's because for once the writers got it right Joe.

The sterling list of 2009 1.0 WAR players courtesy fangraphs.com: Jerry Hairston Jr., Milton Bradley, Jack Cust, Omir Santos, Kenji Johjima, Jayson Nix, Laynce Nix, Ryan Doumit, Jesus Flores, Nolan Reimold, and Ryan Church. Hmm...rookies, veteran sacks of s**t and veterans with "issues". Is it fair to say Joe Carter overvalues his accomplishments just a tad?

I'm not sure if we even deserve a baseball team. Then again I must remember that it is the blowhards that tend to phone in to talk radio, but geez...and I'm a Jays fan who will always remember where he was when Carter hit that HR. HOFer? For one huge World Series HR and sweet jacks**t all else? Get a f**cking grip people.

For the record I would have put 7 names on my ballot if I had one:
Blyleven, Larkin, Martinez, Trammell, Raines, Alomar and McGwire.

I cannot understand the love for Dawson. His one MVP award he appropriated from a ton of his peers in the NL in 1987. Tony Gwynn, Tim Raines, Eric Davis, Dale Murphy and Pedro Guerrero were all far better that year and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Even his own teammate Ryne Sandberg arguably had a better season than him once you adjust for positions or they were at least equal. I really don't see much difference between Dawson, Mattingly, McGriff and Murphy when you adjust for career playing time. Before you go all bat s**t crazy Donnie Baseball, Crime Dog, and Murph fans, that is not a ringing endorsement. They're basically the same player: Hall of Very Good, but not Hall of Fame.

Dawson ranks 22nd all-time in Outs Made. Sure, it's partly a reflection of the length of his career, but the only players that he's arguably a better player than on that list are Aparicio, Vizquel, Brock and Maranville. Regardless of Aparicio, Brock and Maranville's "HOF status" and for that matter Vizquel's possible "HOF status", that is not a ringing endorsement either as they are all below the level of Mattingly, McGriff and Murphy. None of those seven players should be in the HOF and Dawson shouldn't be either.

For those that would argue against this post with the limp, lame old "But it's not the Hall of Numbers" bulls**t, save your breath. Writers justify their votes every year with numbers, unfortunately they use numbers like Hits, HR, Wins, ERA and worst of all Ribbies!. It is the Hall of Numbers and it always has been, well except for the wing they should set up called the: "Friends of Frankie Frisch Wing". To suggest otherwise is to completely ignore reality.

I really thought with the 2009 season awards that we'd turned the corner on this lunacy, but today's results drive home the point that the writers still don't know their heads from their a$$es, which is not a good trait to have, particularly when you're in charge of selecting HOFers. There's only one word for today's results: Ugh! As for Mariotti and the infamous 5 who didn't bother to vote: strip them of their voting privileges to send a message to the other writers to at least appear to treat the process with some respect. That's all I got...for now.

VERY well said! I knew AJ would come in with the ringing sound of reason.

I am not really seeing anyone on here that is arguing that Dawson should have gotten in, but I also don't see anyone that don't think he shouldn't be in.

Hall of Very Good, not Hall of Fame.

[Jeffy25]

You really have no respect for your team's heroes. (AJ)

I think he is just unbiased and realistic....I respect very much so how non-homer AJ is.....I can't say I am the same way.

[Jeffy25]

Marty Noble on Alomar "Possibly the greatest second basemen since Joe Morgan, but I am going to make him pay for two spitting incidents, and leave him off my ballot for the first year."
Basically, he will vote for him next year, but left him off this year, bc of a spitting incident!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you're gonna vote for him ever, vote now...why wouldn't you?














****ing idiot.


way to "punish" someone for slightly negative moments......

[Jeffy25]

I'm sorry, but seeing someone play is definitely a consideration when it comes to defense IMO. Even today the best defensive metrics are a bit lacking? When it comes to Gold Gloves, I believe Dawson's were earned and not built solely on his reputation as is the case sometimes with other players. Seeing the respect base runners showed his arm not advancing to third or home, day in and day out is something that the numbers don't always tell you. Another example:


That kind of sums up my feelings on Dawson. For a "borderline" player, as he may be (I'm not comparing him to Mantle or anything), sometimes the intangibles are the difference. And he's an A+ there. Going into the steroid era eligible players, clearly character is at least some factor with the voters--players under "suspicion" are not getting the votes they should based on the raw numbers. Shouldn't the reverse be true?


And if he'd played the best part of his career for Boston, rather than the no man's land that was Montreal, he would've been a first ballot guy.

Personally, I only care a tiny bit what his teamates have to say about him and what you "saw" in his defense....

It isn't a strong enough argument IMO to give a guy a vote...I see it as weak justification for a questionable vote. Dawson is borderline, not awful that he made it, but there are others that I think are more deserving.

[ragecage]

Thats the ultimate flaw in the system, writers and their emotions. Its pretty sad when Marioti is more of a bitter prick than I am, and apparently he takes it out on sports.

[Jeffy25]

When someone says Morris deserves to get in because he was the ace of three world series teams....what do you say?