Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee

[Jeffy25]

http://deadspin.com/5443162/presenti...-of-fame-voter

Because this logic deserves to keep you as a vote

I didn't vote for anybody in the baseball hall of fame this year. Ya know why? To me…the first ballot is sacred. I think Roberto Alomar is an eventual Hall of Famer, not the first time. Edgar Martinez, designated hitter, eventually, but not the first time. Same goes for maybe Fred McGriff. As far as Blyleven and Dawson…if they haven't gotten in for years and years I cannot vote them in now."

Especially when the ****er voted for Blyleven, Dawson, AND Rice last year, all of them had been on the ballots how many times at that point in their careers? come on! No one can be this stupid.


And that Lisa girl really seems to appreciate having a vote

[haveacigar]

I had never paid much attention, and had never realized that Blyleven actually made much comment on the issue over the years. To be honest, it knocks him down a step in my eyes. I wish he would just say, thanks, it is an honor to be considered and thank those people that did vote for him. Complaining about Hall of Fame votes just bugs me a bit.

Uhhh....really?

Every year he gets snubbed by assholes and every year other assholes bug him about it. He has earned the right to be ornery about it.

[HoustonGM]

And that Lisa girl really seems to appreciate having a vote

Did you read the disclaimer thing? That was a mistake. She has simply NOT voted, which is different from sending in a blank ballot.

I think Bill Conlin's logic is the most tortured. I'll vote for Tim Raines because I think he deserves to be in the HoF, but since he only got 20% of the vote, I won't vote for him in the next 2 years, but now that he's over 30%, I'll vote for him again.

[gRYFYN1]

I think Bill Conlin's logic is the most tortured. I'll vote for Tim Raines because I think he deserves to be in the HoF, but since he only got 20% of the vote, I won't vote for him in the next 2 years, but now that he's over 30%, I'll vote for him again.

I think the HoF really needs to look at the ballots and start revokeing voting privileges.

Lisa Olsen obviously has no interest in voting for the HoF .. while suppose he stance is a "no harm, no foul" type thing, And she had basically already done that herself.

Mariotti, despite everything and the absoluelty insane reasons at least in his twisted small minded world, he's trying ...

And Conlin ... His simple quote about his Tim Raines voting proves that he has no interst in taking his vote honestly... The simple fact that he ADMITS that he is not making his own decsions and is voting for people based solely on how others voted should mean that he should be removed.

[HoustonGM]

Mariotti, despite everything and the absoluelty insane reasons at least in his twisted small minded world, he's trying ...

Is he? He's challenging the BBWAA to revoke his privileges! He's using his privilege to be an attention whore.

[gRYFYN1]

Is he? He's challenging the BBWAA to revoke his privileges! He's using his privilege to be an attention whore.

which is what he uses everting in his life for .. he isnt treating his vote any differently that anything else....

[SirKodiak]

Best 35 Offensive (Batting + Base Stealing) Second Basemen of All-Time based on wRC+ (min. 6000 PA)

Name        	BB%	K%	BB/K	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	ISO	Spd	BABIP	wRC	wRAA	wOBA	wRC+
Rogers Hornsby	11.3 %	8.3 %	1.53	.358	.434	.577	1.010	.218	5.6	.365	2015	896	.459	175
Eddie Collins	13.1 %	3.9 %	4.23	.333	.424	.429	.853	.096	6.9	.343	2090	751	.414	156
Nap Lajoie	5.1 %	4.3 %	1.07	.338	.380	.467	.847	.128	6.3	.295	1797	610	.399	148
Joe Morgan	16.7 %	10.9 %	1.84	.271	.392	.427	.819	.156	6.5	.281	1796	569	.382	146
Rod Carew	9.9 %	11.0 %	0.99	.328	.393	.429	.822	.101	5.7	.361	1576	436	.370	136
Larry Doyle	8.8 %	5.1 %	1.96	.290	.357	.408	.765	.118	6.5	.295	1037	265	.370	133
C. Gehringer	11.8 %	4.2 %	3.19	.320	.404	.480	.884	.160	6.0	.320	1790	509	.404	133
Bobby Grich	13.6 %	18.5 %	0.85	.266	.371	.424	.794	.158	4.1	.299	1163	258	.359	131
Tony Lazzeri	12.1 %	13.7 %	1.01	.292	.380	.467	.846	.174	5.8	.316	1170	250	.386	130
Cupid Childs	15.0 %	3.9 %	5.26	.306	.416	.389	.805	.083	6.6	.328	1304	294	.394	129
Joe Gordon	11.7 %	12.3 %	1.08	.268	.357	.466	.822	.197	4.7	.269	964	208	.377	129
H. Richardson	6.3 %	7.9 %	0.85	.299	.344	.435	.779	.136	7.5	.316	1151	276	.359	128
Jeff Kent	8.6 %	17.9 %	0.53	.290	.356	.500	.855	.210	4.0	.316	1463	283	.366	125
Roberto Alomar	10.2 %	12.6 %	0.91	.300	.371	.443	.814	.143	6.2	.326	1573	323	.365	125
Bobby Doerr	10.2 %	8.6 %	1.33	.288	.362	.461	.823	.173	4.3	.290	1180	254	.377	122
Davey Lopes	11.6 %	13.4 %	0.98	.263	.349	.388	.737	.125	6.9	.284	981	163	.348	122
Lou Whitaker	12.3 %	12.8 %	1.09	.276	.363	.426	.789	.150	4.6	.294	1385	252	.352	121
Miller Huggins	15.3 %	11.4 %	1.83	.265	.382	.314	.696	.049	5.6	.303	898	187	.353	121
Craig Biggio	9.6 %	16.1 %	0.66	.281	.363	.433	.796	.152	5.8	.314	1796	278	.355	120
Frankie Frisch	7.4 %	3.0 %	2.68	.316	.369	.432	.801	.116	6.4	.318	1528	270	.377	120
Johnny Evers	11.3 %	5.1 %	3.44	.270	.356	.334	.690	.064	5.9	.284	904	154	.344	119
Ryne Sandberg	8.3 %	15.0 %	0.60	.285	.344	.452	.795	.167	6.2	.307	1309	242	.355	118
Julio Franco	9.6 %	15.5 %	0.68	.298	.365	.417	.782	.119	5.1	.337	1346	208	.349	117
Buddy Myer	12.1 %	6.1 %	2.25	.303	.389	.406	.795	.103	5.8	.318	1199	173	.369	117
Del Pratt	7.0 %	5.8 %	1.33	.292	.345	.403	.748	.111	5.9	.305	974	135	.353	116
Chuck Knoblauch	11.2 %	11.5 %	1.10	.289	.378	.406	.783	.117	6.8	.314	1075	169	.357	116
Billy Herman	8.7 %	5.6 %	1.72	.304	.367	.407	.774	.103	4.5	.318	1206	174	.362	116
Jimmy Williams	8.0 %	 	 	.275	.337	.397	.733	.122	6.5	 	837	150	.347	116
Dick McAuliffe	12.5 %	15.7 %	0.91	.247	.343	.403	.746	.156	4.4	.266	898	142	.336	116
Ron Hunt	9.6 %	7.3 %	1.45	.273	.368	.347	.715	.074	3.8	.289	746	105	.331	115
Tony Phillips	14.8 %	19.7 %	0.88	.266	.374	.389	.763	.123	4.8	.313	1226	151	.345	115
Willie Randolph	13.4 %	8.4 %	1.84	.276	.373	.351	.724	.076	5.4	.296	1198	136	.337	115

I kinda like setting a minimum number of plate appearances (I chose roughly 10 full years) and then looking at rate stats.

[HoustonGM]

which is what he uses everting in his life for .. he isnt treating his vote any differently that anything else....

Yeah, and he's a giant blowhard everywhere in life. He should have his voting privileges stripped more than anybody, imo.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

What about the possibility of David Ortiz getting in after he retires? I was just looking at his stats in comparison to Edgar Martinez's, and they're quite similar. 11 points difference in OPS (edge to Edgar), 13 point difference in OPS+ (edge to Edgar), and if you care about counting stats Ortiz has a few more homers and about 800 less hits (in five less seasons). Plus he gets the bonus of having a reputation as being a great clutch hitter, from the voters anyways.

I've never really thought of Ortiz as a possible future Hall of Famer, but if Edgar is worthy then why not Ortiz? Their stats, at least the ones I can find, are extremely comparable. Of course it depends on how Ortiz finishes his career and if he continues his epic downward decline or if he can still be an average to above average bat.

[Jeffy25]

I am doubtful on Ortiz, and my first response is, faithful Bo Sox fandom.

But I think you have pretty good points and they are at least worth giving merit to.

I have always thought similarly with Jim Edmonds.

I feel Edmonds would be a hall of famer if he could have had two more productive seasons. But I don't think his sabr, nor counting stats are quite enough. Two more of those 40 homer, .300 average, gold glove seasons, and he is in I think.....so basically, skip his injury seasons and replace them with his highest productive seasons

[HoustonGM]

What about the possibility of David Ortiz getting in after he retires? I was just looking at his stats in comparison to Edgar Martinez's, and they're quite similar. 11 points difference in OPS (edge to Edgar), 13 point difference in OPS+ (edge to Edgar), and if you care about counting stats Ortiz has a few more homers and about 800 less hits (in five less seasons). Plus he gets the bonus of having a reputation as being a great clutch hitter, from the voters anyways.

I've never really thought of Ortiz as a possible future Hall of Famer, but if Edgar is worthy then why not Ortiz? Their stats, at least the ones I can find, are extremely comparable. Of course it depends on how Ortiz finishes his career and if he continues his epic downward decline or if he can still be an average to above average bat.

I really don't think it's close at all. Edgar had 11 full seasons of an OPS+ of 130 or better, 8 of those being 150 or higher. Ortiz has 5 seasons higher than 130 and 3 higher than 150. Edgar, for over a decade, was consistently one of the top hitters in the league. Ortiz had a run half as long.

A 13 point OPS+ difference is huge, to say nothing of the 2,600 difference in plate appearances. Ortiz needs about 4 full seasons more to match Edgar in playing time, and barring a miracle, that will mean his OPS+ will drop even further from Edgar since he's clearly in his decline phase.

WAR sees the difference as about as large as the difference between..oh..Bret Boone and Bobby Grich . Ortiz totals 27.4 WAR with 5 seasons above 2 (which is roughly an average season) - four of those above 4 and three above 5. Edgar totals 67.4 WAR with nine seasons of 5 WAR or better and another four seasons between 2 and 5 WAR.

I do think Ortiz will get support disproportionate to his actual value, though, because of the "clutch" reputation.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

I am doubtful on Ortiz, and my first response is, faithful Bo Sox fandom.

But I think you have pretty good points and they are at least worth giving merit to.

I have always thought similarly with Jim Edmonds.

I feel Edmonds would be a hall of famer if he could have had two more productive seasons. But I don't think his sabr, nor counting stats are quite enough. Two more of those 40 homer, .300 average, gold glove seasons, and he is in I think.....so basically, skip his injury seasons and replace them with his highest productive seasons

I've always been doubtful too. I'm not really pining for him to get in, I'm legitimately curious as to what the more statistically educated people on this board think of his chances, because I've never thought he had a legitimate shot at it.

[Jeffy25]

while I am on it, how close is Rolen to a hall of famer? If it wasn't for Jones and A-Rod he would have been the best third basemen of the decade. Seems like he has had some really productive years with the bat, while being great with the glove.

[200tang]

What about the possibility of David Ortiz getting in after he retires? I was just looking at his stats in comparison to Edgar Martinez's, and they're quite similar. 11 points difference in OPS (edge to Edgar), 13 point difference in OPS+ (edge to Edgar), and if you care about counting stats Ortiz has a few more homers and about 800 less hits (in five less seasons). Plus he gets the bonus of having a reputation as being a great clutch hitter, from the voters anyways.

I've never really thought of Ortiz as a possible future Hall of Famer, but if Edgar is worthy then why not Ortiz? Their stats, at least the ones I can find, are extremely comparable. Of course it depends on how Ortiz finishes his career and if he continues his epic downward decline or if he can still be an average to above average bat.

Ortiz' body is exactly the kind that's about to break down. However, he'd have to keep up his well above average numbers for another ~8-10 years because his peak is nowhere near Edgars.

Edgar had 8 years with an OPS+ over 150 while Ortiz has had 3. He'll have to have one hell of a mid-late 30 career to even be in the discussion.

I honestly don't think he'll be a useful player by the time he's 36, though.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

I really don't think it's close at all. Edgar had 11 full seasons of an OPS+ of 130 or better, 8 of those being 150 or higher. Ortiz has 5 seasons higher than 130 and 3 higher than 150. Edgar, for over a decade, was consistently one of the top hitters in the league. Ortiz had a run half as long.

A 13 point OPS+ difference is huge, to say nothing of the 2,600 difference in plate appearances. Ortiz needs about 4 full seasons more to match Edgar in playing time, and barring a miracle, that will mean his OPS+ will drop even further from Edgar since he's clearly in his decline phase.

WAR sees the difference as about as large as the difference between..oh..Bret Boone and Bobby Grich . Ortiz totals 27.4 WAR with 5 seasons above 2 (which is roughly an average season) - four of those above 4 and three above 5. Edgar totals 67.4 WAR with nine seasons of 5 WAR or better and another four seasons between 2 and 5 WAR.

I do think Ortiz will get support disproportionate to his actual value, though, because of the "clutch" reputation.

Fair enough, I was just curious .

Also I wholeheartedly agree with the bolded statement. I think it'll be even moreso if Edgar actually does get in, because the writers will also look and see that they do have similarities in certain stats.