Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee

[metsguy234]

You're not going to put in a guy with a better average, the same OPS+, and 500+ doubles for his career?

The top of my head isn't the best place to find statistical facts.

I'll look up the numbers when they're more relavent (i.e. next year).

[HoustonGM]

I have to disagree on the defense. I would think 1B is a valuable position because he not only had a few number of errors he also saved his teammates from errors too and save a ton of balls

An average right fielder is more valuable than an average first basemen.


The numbers, using WAR. Larry Walker gets +41 runs from his range and +55 from his arm for a total defensive value of +96 and -89 from positional adjustment .

Helton gets +81 from range and +3 from his double play ability for a total defensive value of +84. He gets -112 from the positional adjustment.

(Total WAR of 67.1 for Walker to 57.1 for Helton)

[actionjackson]

Marty Noble is defending his answer on mlb network


and basically kept saying he is the best second basemen he has seen since Morgan....and plans to vote for him next year, but didn't think he derserved it because of two spitting incidents.

I guess he must have slept through "Sweet" Lou Whitaker's career, or forgotten about Bobby Grich who retired a couple of years after Joe Morgan, or missed out on Craig Biggio's career due to it taking place "deep in the heart of Texas". Oh wait, none of those guys have been granted the good graces of the idiots and had the ultimate honour bestowed upon them by the all-powerful, all-knowing BBWAA. Obviously Biggio hasn't been put on the ballot yet, but the other two are just two in a long line of ridiculous traveshamockeries that these buffoons have inflicted upon the baseball public and the players affected by the actions of these pea-size brained gatekeepers of Cooperstown. Rave on idiot writer rave on. You'll soon be in China with that hole you keep digging for yourself. Ugh.

[Jeffy25]

So HGM, Helton probably could have been decently valuable in Right?



my knee jerk reaction is that if a player CAN play at least average defense somewhere other than first, and he has a great bat, he is probably more valuable not playing first....of course depends on the total team.

[HoustonGM]

So HGM, Helton probably could have been decently valuable in Right?

my knee jerk reaction is that if a player CAN play at least average defense somewhere other than first, and he has a great bat, he is probably more valuable not playing first....of course depends on the total team.

Helton is a FANTASTIC defender at first. Even if he could've been an average defender in right, he probably wouldn't have been more valuable simply because a lot of his value comes from his excellent defense.

And right field is harder on the body...so it's an open question as to whether or not he'd have been able to hit at the same level while playing the harder position and also stay healthy.

[metsguy234]

I guess he must have slept through "Sweet" Lou Whitaker's career, or forgotten about Bobby Grich who retired a couple of years after Joe Morgan, or missed out on Craig Biggio's career due to it taking place "deep in the heart of Texas". Oh wait, none of those guys have been granted the good graces of the idiots and had the ultimate honour bestowed upon them by the all-powerful, all-knowing BBWAA. Obviously Biggio hasn't been put on the ballot yet, but the other two are just two in a long line of ridiculous traveshamockeries that these buffoons have inflicted upon the baseball public and the players affected by the actions of these pea-size brained gatekeepers of Cooperstown. Rave on idiot writer rave on. You'll soon be in China with that hole you keep digging for yourself. Ugh.

Wait. What the hell?

Lou Whitaker and Bobby Grich do not deserve to be in the Hall. They are not better than Robbie Alomar. Sorry. No amount of sabermetrics can convince me otherwise.

On second thought, maybe Whitaker would be defensible. Very good defensive second baseman, solid hitter. I wouldn't be particularly mad if he got in. I wouldn't call him a snub but it's not indefensible.

Bobby Grich though... what the hell? I'd sooner want to see Dick Pole in the Hall of Fame then him. We can't just elect every marginal second baseman who played for a while.

[HoustonGM]

Bobby Grich was a better hitter and defender than both Lou Whitaker and Roberto Alomar. Whitaker and Alomar had longer careers.

[Jeffy25]

Alomar > Grich and Whitaker....at least offensively speaking....can't speak about their defensive abilities well enough.

[HoustonGM]

Alomar > Grich and Whitaker....at least offensively speaking....can't speak about their defensive abilities well enough.

I'd take Grich over Alomar offensively. Their top OPS+'s (only including 120+), Grich on the left:

164 150
145 141
142 139
138 136
135 134
130 129
127
125
123

[Jeffy25]

and I would rather have King Kelly

[Jeffy25]

and cap anson

[dps]

Grich I'm not sure about, but no way is Whitaker more valuable than Alomar.

[HoustonGM]

Grich I'm not sure about, but no way is Whitaker more valuable than Alomar.

It depends on the value of their defense. Alomar has the better reputation, but the metrics don't like him very much while Whitaker comes out well.

[haveacigar]

Whitaker is not better than Alomar, but they both deserve to be in the hall.

You can't judge Helton v. Walker when Helton's career is still ongoing, obviously. Right now it's Walker by a bit. If Helton plays 2 or 3 more seasons, stays healthy, and is effective, he'll pull ahead.

[HoustonGM]

You can't judge Helton v. Walker when Helton's career is still ongoing, obviously. Right now it's Walker by a bit. If Helton plays 2 or 3 more seasons, stays healthy, and is effective, he'll pull ahead.

Agreed