Andre Dawson - lone HoF inductee

[haveacigar]

I heard Todd Helton's name

He's getting my HOF vote if he played 2 or 3 more seasons at his current pace. My important hypothetical one. Right after I recover from the beating I'm gonna get from AJ for not voting for Larry Walker.

[HoustonGM]

Here is what I was told when I said that Morris doesn't belong in the hall

When Jack Morris retired, if you didn't know his career ERA, you would have said that he was a lock for the HOF."

LOL. Yeah, if you're ignorant of a player's actual value, you may well think he was a lock for the HoF. And you'd be wrong.

If voters can look past Andre Dawson's pathetic .323 OBP, they should look past Morris' 3.90 ERA.

A hitter's job consists of various areas - getting on base, defense, baserunning, hitting for power, etc. It's possible to be deficient in one of those areas yet be good enough in the other areas to outweigh that. A pitcher really has just one area that makes up 98% of his job - preventing runs....and Morris was helped greatly even there by a fantastic up the middle defense of Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker, and Chet Lemon...and he still was only slightly above average.

It's funny, with all these non-deserving players that have gained traction in recent years like Jim Rice and Jack Morris, the writers use the argument that you had to have seen them play and had to be there and all that nonsense...yet the writers closest to their careers voted for them less than the writers do now.

Safe to say, I don't care about clutch a whole lot, or reputation. Morris is basically pitching Joe Carter (ERA+ and OPS+ are both 105). As far as being the best pitcher of the 80s, I really don't know what makes him better in that time frame than Blyleven, Valenzuela, or Ryan.

I don't think Carter is a fair comparison at all. An innings eating 105 ERA+ pitcher is way way way better than a 105 OPS+ corner outfielder.

[HoustonGM]

Regarding the "best pitcher in 1980's" thing, I did this comparison yesterday on AIM with metsguy.

With a minimum of 1,500 innings, Jack Morris is 13th in ERA+ in the 1980's. With the same minimum, in the 1990's, Kevin Appier is 5th in ERA+.

It's true that 1,500 innings was less in the 1980's than it was the 1990's, so let's raise the 1980 minimum to 2,000. Morris is now 7th. It's true that he has about 400 more innings than most of the other guys, but it's only 100 more than Dave Stieb, who beats him 127-109 in ERA+.

[haveacigar]

I don't think Carter is a fair comparison at all. An innings eating 105 ERA+ pitcher is way way way better than a 105 OPS+ corner outfielder.

Maybe from a WAR perspective, but from a perception standpoint, I think it's quite valid. Above average players with long careers who are overrated because of their counting stats and clutch reputations. Morris might be more above average than Carter (I don't know what Carter's defense was like), but that wasn't the comparison I was making.

[SirKodiak]

Jack Morris, Mr Clutch, Mr. Groove It When Game Out of Reach:

          Split   G   PA   AB    R    H  2B 3B  HR  SB  CS  BB   SO SO/BB   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS   TB GDP HBP  SH  SF IBB BAbip tOPS+
           RISP 540 3817 3236 1265  805 128 21  91  74  26 406  605  1.49 .249 .326 .386 .711 1248 106  19  42 114  99  .269   106
            --- 549 9388 8549  225 2064 345 58 223   0   0 812 1513  1.86 .241 .309 .374 .683 3194   0  27   0   0   0  .270    97
         Men On 549 6730 5894 1486 1503 227 33 166 373 142 578  965  1.67 .255 .319 .389 .708 2294 299  31 113 114  99  .274   104
            1-- 549 2913 2658  221  698  99 12  75 299 116 172  360  2.09 .263 .310 .394 .704 1046 193  12  71   0   0  .280   103
            -2- 478 1403 1206  249  278  43  7  38  18   8 170  235  1.38 .231 .330 .372 .703  449   0  10  17   0  43  .257   103
            --3 313  508  410  208  109  18  3   9   1   2  61   71  1.16 .266 .345 .390 .735  160   0   4   3  30   8  .278   113
            12- 423  892  807  237  198  28  6  28  13   5  61  137  2.25 .245 .301 .399 .700  322  55   3  21   0   1  .265   101
            1-3 300  452  377  230  112  19  2   9  39  11  30   67  2.23 .297 .316 .430 .746  162  32   1   0  44   1  .299   114
            -23 220  318  228  165   58   8  3   2   0   0  70   56  0.80 .254 .406 .342 .748   78   0   1   0  19  46  .296   120
            123 164  244  208  176   50  12  0   5   3   0  14   39  2.79 .240 .263 .370 .634   77  19   0   1  21   0  .243    81
    --3lt 2 out 373  807  594  529  193  34  1  12   3   1  91  107  1.18 .325 .359 .446 .805  265  51   4   4 114  33  .307   132
      --3 2 out 378  715  629  212  136  23  7  13   0   0  84  126  1.50 .216 .310 .337 .648  212   0   2   0   0  22  .251    88

I          Split   G   PA   AB   R    H  2B 3B  HR SB CS  BB   SO SO/BB   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS   TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB BAbip tOPS+
      High Lvrge 468 2754 2423 676  629  93 10  61 10  8 198  402  2.03 .260 .311 .382 .692  925 157  11 57 65  42  .280   100
    Medium Lvrge 544 7413 6657 690 1626 269 45 180 13  7 648 1148  1.77 .244 .312 .379 .691 2525 110  24 45 39  43  .269    99
       Low Lvrge 547 5951 5363 306 1312 210 36 148  1  0 544  928  1.71 .245 .316 .380 .696 2038  32  23 11 10  14  .271   101

                                                                                                                                     
I         Split   G    PA    AB    R    H  2B 3B  HR  SB  CS   BB   SO SO/BB   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS   TB GDP HBP  SH  SF IBB BAbip tOPS+
    2 outs RISP 512  1736  1520  472  341  52 16  42  25  10  207  297  1.43 .224 .321 .363 .683  551   0   9   0   0  51  .253    98
    Late  Close 279  1852  1670  183  397  55  3  45  33  13  138  275  1.99 .238 .297 .355 .652  593  51   7  26  11  26  .259    88
       Tie Game 492  4718  4196  468 1043 174 24 100 130  50  433  719  1.66 .249 .319 .373 .692 1565  86  19  34  36  39  .276   100
     Within 1 R 519  8980  8002  934 1955 315 42 205 248  96  796 1414  1.78 .244 .313 .371 .684 2969 156  34  79  69  71  .271    98
     Within 2 R 528 11709 10441 1236 2581 403 64 269 314 123 1033 1789  1.73 .247 .315 .375 .691 3919 220  45 101  89  84  .273    99
     Within 3 R 541 13499 12064 1439 2978 469 74 319 350 137 1173 2064  1.76 .247 .314 .377 .691 4552 259  51 109 102  91  .272   100
     Within 4 R 544 14604 13059 1555 3222 518 86 346 363 141 1270 2244  1.77 .247 .314 .379 .693 4950 275  54 111 110  97  .272   100
    Margin  4 R 155  1514  1384  156  345  54  5  43  10   1  120  234  1.95 .249 .310 .389 .699  538  24   4   2   4   2  .272   101

Late & Close are PA in the 7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck.

14.08 WPA total for career
0.68 Clutch total for career

[Jeffy25]

kind of funny, but in OOTP, you can state min career numbers that can give a guy automatic entry into the hall of fame


500 homers, 3000 hits, 300 wins, 3000 strike outs etc...

and you can add criteria to it. such as you can't be in the hall of fame with a career on base average lower than .250 for example. So even if you had the 500 homers, but only reached base a quarter of the time, you wouldn't make it.

for ERA, the default career era in the game:







3.80

Morris doesn't make it.

Blyleven does easily in the game.


just thought I would share how the games default wouldn't even let Morris in, and it would let Dawson in....

if you are comparing career obp for Dawson to career era of Morris.

[haveacigar]

career OBP of .250? Who does that keep out of the Hall, Dane Sardinha?

[Jeffy25]

career OBP of .250? Who does that keep out of the Hall, Dane Sardinha?

hahaa, I was just throwing out a number, not sure what the default is, I don't remember, maybe it's more like .300....just guessing again though.

[gRYFYN1]

What worse the fact the Alomar didn't get in or the fact the osome actually voted for Kevin Appier for the HOF ?

[haveacigar]

What worse the fact the Alomar didn't get in or the fact the osome actually voted for Kevin Appier for the HOF ?

Alomar by far. Peeps need to lay off the Appier hate. He's not a hall of famer but he deserved to get A vote. Hentgen getting a vote was worse.

[kenny1234]

What worse the fact the Alomar didn't get in or the fact the osome actually voted for Kevin Appier for the HOF ?

Appier isn't a ridiculous vote (though I wouldn't vote for him) - so I guess it is Alomar.

[HoustonGM]

Yeah, I'm not quite sure what all the flapping about Appier getting one measly vote is about. Eric Karros got two. David Segui got one. Ellis Burks got two. Andres Galaragga got 22. Kevin Appier was better than all of them. I guess people forget (or don't know) that Appier was quite a great pitcher in his prime. He was jobbed out of the 1993 Cy Young award, and was a very good pitcher from 1990-1997.

[OregonDuck1989]

Tang must have a vote for David Segui to get a vote.

[200tang]

http://deadspin.com/5442809/i-really...even-reactions

Poor Bert. At least some of the comments are awesome.

2011: "**** it, I'm starting my own Hall of Fame for pitchers with 200 or more complete games."

2012: "How the **** am I still waiting to get into my own Hall of Fame?!?"

2013: [Goes on three-state killing spree]

I think the big thing holding back his election is how awful he was in R.B.I. Baseball on NES. I don't care if your numbers look good, if your 8-bit persona (avatar?) can't beat the California Angels because Reggie Jackson takes you yard every time he comes up, you don't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

[metsguy234]

One can argue that since it's the Hall of FAME it should be for the most FAMOUS players, not necessarily for the best ones.