Zomg!!! Halladay is gone and so is cliff lee

[bucher34]

How does this work?

5:29pm: For whatever its worth, Lee's agent Darek Braunecker says he hasn't heard from any of the three teams about a deal involving his client, according to Scott Lauber of the News Journal. Lauber adds that if the deal is completed, there may not be any announcement until tomorrow or Wednesday.

He also speculates that the Phillies "preliminary" talks with Lee last week regarding an extension beyond 2010 may have left the club with the impression that they were not going to receive any sort of discount from the ace.

[actionjackson]

on the ootp forum there is a guy saying that Lee is a better pitcher than Halladay and that he hates this deal. He is basing this on this past year's playoff appearance

facepalm!

*Double Facepalm*. I assume he's also basing it on what happened to Halladay during July and August, while JP was running around shooting his mouth off, whoring for any attention he could get, so let's take a look at that:

11 GS 3 W 6 L 3.89 ERA 10.33 H/9 1.22 BB/9 7.78 K/9 1.33 HR/9 6.36 K/BB 3.88 FIP 14.84 P/IP 7.36 IP/GS -0.19 WPA

Other than hits, homeruns, wins, and maybe wpa, I'm pretty sure most pitchers would give anything to put up numbers like these two months of Halladay slump. The true mark of a champ is to get up off the mat when you get knocked down and whoa boy did he ever do that in September:

6 GS 4 W 2 L 1.47 ERA 7.53 H/9 1.84 BB/9 7.90 K/9 0.55 HR/9 4.30 K/BB 2.91 FIP 13.47 P/IP 8.17 IP/GS +1.20 WPA

Ah, that's the Roy Halladay I know. Now before anyone talks about small sample size blah, blah, blah or it was September yaddah, yaddah, yaddah...yes, yes it is a small sample size and yes it was September, but still look at those freakish numbers (2 GS vs NYY, 1 GS vs BOS, 1 GS vs TBR, 1 GS vs MIN and 1 GS vs SEA: every single one of those teams finished above .500 and aside from the BOS game, for the most part they put their "A" lineup out there, no playoff pressure, but still... ).

I'm assuming that Cliff Lee-fanboy at the OOTP boards was using an equally small sample size, but if you want to look at a larger sample size, Halladay still has him. Am I biased? You bet, but I'm also right. The only questions Amaro should be facing from the angry hordes in Philly is why Cliff Lee? I'd say it's all about the Benjamins baby! Secondly, is the upgrade from Lee to Halladay enough to justify the prospects they have given up, should the deal go through? But as to whether Halladay is better than Lee, yes, yes he is.

[actionjackson]

I'm a Jays fan and I have pretty mixed feelings about this trade, without even knowing for sure what Toronto is getting back. I knew it was coming, but now that it has and Halladay's gone...I just feel like the Jays are in for a long rebuilding season.

Only problem is, I can't remember the last time a Jays season wasn't long. They haven't made the playoffs since 1993. Although they've had winning seasons since then, they've never really come close to the postseason. Yah, there's been times when the Jays have made a push for it, but they've always fallen well short of the division and the wild card. They've always ended up saying: We got a five year plan and then we'll be competitive, which has never turned out to be the case. I'm 24, I was about 7 and 8 when the Jays were winning World Series. I have trouble remembering a time when Toronto's meaningful contribution to baseball wasn't dealing star players to other teams or letting them slip into the FA market so that they can get a real shot at a ring with another team.

I don't want another five year plan. I know that's all that's being offered to me, but I'm not sure I really want an MLB team under those conditions. If it was the first or second five-year plan than sure, but the fourth or fifth? Yes, it's possible to win on a budget, but it's rare and even when it's achieved, the team you build doesn't last long. The Yankees don't win the World Series every season, but they're competitive every season.

Admittably, budget isn't the whole problem with the Jays. Under JP they had money but they ultimately made bad signings. Wells and Rios being examples of that. So this hasn't just be a money thing, it's also been a management thing.

At the end of the day though, Halladay left because he didn't think the Jays would win a World Series before he retires and the Jays traded him because they could offer him no evidence to the contrary. That's kind of depressing.

All well and good and as a fellow Jays fan I hear your frustration...But, take a good, hard, honest look back at the two GMs since Gillick and answer these questions:

1) Was there really a plan? Or was it slapdash GMing on the fly: one move made with contention in mind, the next move made with an eye to the future, the next move made to contend?...Whoa, stop this ride, I want to get off, I'm getting dizzy from going in circles. The organization went in circles or sideways at best. That's all the evidence I need to see that there was no concrete plan, with steps in place to build the team up not the Yankee way or the Red Sox way, but the Blue Jay way. In the mid-'80's through the Championship teams the Blue Jay way was admired and respected throughout baseball and then under Ash and Ricciardi it seemed to get lost in the wilderness.

2) Was there really a concrete effort to rebuild? I ask because I don't see it...anywhere. The Jays were in dire need of rebuilding following the Championships. They were an old team, that after 1995 went their separate ways. There should've been alarm bells going off back then that it was time to get back to the basics of drafting and developing, making shrewd trades and then when the organization has been built back up from top to bottom, sprinkle in some free agents to put you over the top. Instead we got back to back GMs that bore more resemblance to the little Dutch boy plugging the holes in the dyke instead of competent GMs properly building a baseball organization.

I think we finally have a competent GM here, but he's only been on the job for ten weeks. Already, especially if this trade goes through, he has shown far more cahones than the other two combined. It will take time, but finally I see evidence of a plan and that's all I've been asking for for 15 years. I've waited 15 years to see evidence of a plan: I can wait 2 or 3 more years to see said plan come to fruition. You have two choices: You can either be patient with AA and let him do his job, or you can demand instant gratification and go cheer for the Yankees et al. I know what my choice is. What's yours?

[gosensgo101]

all well and good and as a fellow jays fan i hear your frustration...but, take a good, hard, honest look back at the two gms since gillick and answer these questions:

1) was there really a plan? Or was it slapdash gming on the fly: One move made with contention in mind, the next move made with an eye to the future, the next move made to contend?...whoa, stop this ride, i want to get off, i'm getting dizzy from going in circles. The organization went in circles or sideways at best. That's all the evidence i need to see that there was no concrete plan, with steps in place to build the team up not the yankee way or the red sox way, but the blue jay way. In the mid-'80's through the championship teams the blue jay way was admired and respected throughout baseball and then under ash and ricciardi it seemed to get lost in the wilderness.

2) was there really a concrete effort to rebuild? I ask because i don't see it...anywhere. The jays were in dire need of rebuilding following the championships. They were an old team, that after 1995 went their separate ways. There should've been alarm bells going off back then that it was time to get back to the basics of drafting and developing, making shrewd trades and then when the organization has been built back up from top to bottom, sprinkle in some free agents to put you over the top. Instead we got back to back gms that bore more resemblance to the little dutch boy plugging the holes in the dyke instead of competent gms properly building a baseball organization.

I think we finally have a competent gm here, but he's only been on the job for ten weeks. Already, especially if this trade goes through, he has shown far more cahones than the other two combined. It will take time, but finally i see evidence of a plan and that's all i've been asking for for 15 years. I've waited 15 years to see evidence of a plan: I can wait 2 or 3 more years to see said plan come to fruition. you have two choices: You can either be patient with aa and let him do his job, or you can demand instant gratification and go cheer for the yankees et al. I know what my choice is. What's yours?

+1

[actionjackson]

+1

You sir, are mature beyond your years if you agree with me. You were 1 and a half in October of 1993. There is no way you could possibly remember the Blue Jays being relevant at all. At least I have the memory of the gradual progression from crappy expansion team in 1977, to sharing the basement with Cleveland in 1982 instead of being the sole occupants, to watching everything come together with winning records in 11 straight seasons from 1983 through 1993 with 5 Division Championships, 2 Pennants and 2 World Series Championships in that span. This market hadn't experienced that before, it was all so new and exciting. Oh, sure Yankee fans will take their 27 World Series and 40 something Pennants or whatever it is and...well, really f**k off already. You weren't there for your team's first experience of greatness and that's when it feels the best. F**king Yankee fans:

[gosensgo101]

You sir, are mature beyond your years if you agree with me. You were 1 and a half in October of 1993. There is no way you could possibly remember the Blue Jays being relevant at all. At least I have the memory of the gradual progression from crappy expansion team in 1977, to sharing the basement with Cleveland in 1982 instead of being the sole occupants, to watching everything come together with winning records in 11 straight seasons from 1983 through 1993 with 5 Division Championships, 2 Pennants and 2 World Series Championships in that span. This market hadn't experienced that before, it was all so new and exciting. Oh, sure Yankee fans will take their 27 World Series and 40 something Pennants or whatever it is and...well, really f**k off already. You weren't there for your team's first experience of greatness and that's when it feels the best. F**king Yankee fans:

Well, I don't remember them being relevent, but I agree that Jays have needed a plan for a long time, and nobody's really ever put one into action.

[reflections]

You sir, are mature beyond your years if you agree with me. You were 1 and a half in October of 1993. There is no way you could possibly remember the Blue Jays being relevant at all. At least I have the memory of the gradual progression from crappy expansion team in 1977, to sharing the basement with Cleveland in 1982 instead of being the sole occupants, to watching everything come together with winning records in 11 straight seasons from 1983 through 1993 with 5 Division Championships, 2 Pennants and 2 World Series Championships in that span. This market hadn't experienced that before, it was all so new and exciting. Oh, sure Yankee fans will take their 27 World Series and 40 something Pennants or whatever it is and...well, really f**k off already. You weren't there for your team's first experience of greatness and that's when it feels the best. F**king Yankee fans:

I still remember the Bell-Moseby-Barfield outfield. Fernandez and Iorg/Mullinks. Damaso Garcia and Willie Upshaw. Ernie Whitt behind the plate and Cliff Johnson/Al Oliver. Man makes me want to play out a 1985 Blue Jays dynasty.

[ewing6]

Well, I don't remember them being relevent, but I agree that Jays have needed a plan for a long time, and nobody's really ever put one into action.

just like the Mets

[BTerran]

All well and good and as a fellow Jays fan I hear your frustration...But, take a good, hard, honest look back at the two GMs since Gillick and answer these questions:

1) Was there really a plan? Or was it slapdash GMing on the fly: one move made with contention in mind, the next move made with an eye to the future, the next move made to contend?...Whoa, stop this ride, I want to get off, I'm getting dizzy from going in circles. The organization went in circles or sideways at best. That's all the evidence I need to see that there was no concrete plan, with steps in place to build the team up not the Yankee way or the Red Sox way, but the Blue Jay way. In the mid-'80's through the Championship teams the Blue Jay way was admired and respected throughout baseball and then under Ash and Ricciardi it seemed to get lost in the wilderness.

2) Was there really a concrete effort to rebuild? I ask because I don't see it...anywhere. The Jays were in dire need of rebuilding following the Championships. They were an old team, that after 1995 went their separate ways. There should've been alarm bells going off back then that it was time to get back to the basics of drafting and developing, making shrewd trades and then when the organization has been built back up from top to bottom, sprinkle in some free agents to put you over the top. Instead we got back to back GMs that bore more resemblance to the little Dutch boy plugging the holes in the dyke instead of competent GMs properly building a baseball organization.

I think we finally have a competent GM here, but he's only been on the job for ten weeks. Already, especially if this trade goes through, he has shown far more cahones than the other two combined. It will take time, but finally I see evidence of a plan and that's all I've been asking for for 15 years. I've waited 15 years to see evidence of a plan: I can wait 2 or 3 more years to see said plan come to fruition. You have two choices: You can either be patient with AA and let him do his job, or you can demand instant gratification and go cheer for the Yankees et al. I know what my choice is. What's yours?

Where I really have doubts about that argument is with relation to JP. He looked very promising to when he joined the Jays. He was a student of Beane, the man Toronto stole from Boston. He had a plan to build through the draft and asked only for patience. He was a student of the moneyball philosophy and while it may not have worked out, he certainly came in with a plan.

In fact, I think he had more of a plan than AA has revealed. So far the only thing I know for sure about AA is that he thinks more scouts=better drafts. I hope that proves to be the case.

I'm not really about instant gratification. In fact, I think it'd be boring to be a Yankees fan. But I would like some gratification, I'd like to occasionally be competitive.

Yes, at the end of the day, I want AA to be the answer. I want him to prove himself to be superior or even just luckier than JP was. But I don't think it's fair to expect the fanbase to be hopeful. When you've been selling is hope for as long as the Jays have, I think cynicism is the right response.

[gosensgo101]

It now appears that the Phillies top pitching spec Kyle Drabek, and the Mariners top SS spec Carlos Triunfel could be in the deal.

[Jeffy25]

*Double Facepalm*. I assume he's also basing it on what happened to Halladay during July and August, while JP was running around shooting his mouth off, whoring for any attention he could get, so let's take a look at that:

11 GS 3 W 6 L 3.89 ERA 10.33 H/9 1.22 BB/9 7.78 K/9 1.33 HR/9 6.36 K/BB 3.88 FIP 14.84 P/IP 7.36 IP/GS -0.19 WPA

Other than hits, homeruns, wins, and maybe wpa, I'm pretty sure most pitchers would give anything to put up numbers like these two months of Halladay slump. The true mark of a champ is to get up off the mat when you get knocked down and whoa boy did he ever do that in September:

6 GS 4 W 2 L 1.47 ERA 7.53 H/9 1.84 BB/9 7.90 K/9 0.55 HR/9 4.30 K/BB 2.91 FIP 13.47 P/IP 8.17 IP/GS +1.20 WPA

Ah, that's the Roy Halladay I know. Now before anyone talks about small sample size blah, blah, blah or it was September yaddah, yaddah, yaddah...yes, yes it is a small sample size and yes it was September, but still look at those freakish numbers (2 GS vs NYY, 1 GS vs BOS, 1 GS vs TBR, 1 GS vs MIN and 1 GS vs SEA: every single one of those teams finished above .500 and aside from the BOS game, for the most part they put their "A" lineup out there, no playoff pressure, but still... ).

I'm assuming that Cliff Lee-fanboy at the OOTP boards was using an equally small sample size, but if you want to look at a larger sample size, Halladay still has him. Am I biased? You bet, but I'm also right. The only questions Amaro should be facing from the angry hordes in Philly is why Cliff Lee? I'd say it's all about the Benjamins baby! Secondly, is the upgrade from Lee to Halladay enough to justify the prospects they have given up, should the deal go through? But as to whether Halladay is better than Lee, yes, yes he is.

great post, you should be sharing on ootp forum

[ragecage]

It now appears that the Phillies top pitching spec Kyle Drabek, and the Mariners top SS spec Carlos Triunfel could be in the deal.

If he is oh my! Thats what canceled talks with Toronto and Philly before the AS break.

[bucher34]

*Double Facepalm*. I assume he's also basing it on what happened to Halladay during July and August, while JP was running around shooting his mouth off, whoring for any attention he could get, so let's take a look at that:

11 GS 3 W 6 L 3.89 ERA 10.33 H/9 1.22 BB/9 7.78 K/9 1.33 HR/9 6.36 K/BB 3.88 FIP 14.84 P/IP 7.36 IP/GS -0.19 WPA

Other than hits, homeruns, wins, and maybe wpa, I'm pretty sure most pitchers would give anything to put up numbers like these two months of Halladay slump. The true mark of a champ is to get up off the mat when you get knocked down and whoa boy did he ever do that in September:

6 GS 4 W 2 L 1.47 ERA 7.53 H/9 1.84 BB/9 7.90 K/9 0.55 HR/9 4.30 K/BB 2.91 FIP 13.47 P/IP 8.17 IP/GS +1.20 WPA

Ah, that's the Roy Halladay I know. Now before anyone talks about small sample size blah, blah, blah or it was September yaddah, yaddah, yaddah...yes, yes it is a small sample size and yes it was September, but still look at those freakish numbers (2 GS vs NYY, 1 GS vs BOS, 1 GS vs TBR, 1 GS vs MIN and 1 GS vs SEA: every single one of those teams finished above .500 and aside from the BOS game, for the most part they put their "A" lineup out there, no playoff pressure, but still... ).

I'm assuming that Cliff Lee-fanboy at the OOTP boards was using an equally small sample size, but if you want to look at a larger sample size, Halladay still has him. Am I biased? You bet, but I'm also right. The only questions Amaro should be facing from the angry hordes in Philly is why Cliff Lee? I'd say it's all about the Benjamins baby! Secondly, is the upgrade from Lee to Halladay enough to justify the prospects they have given up, should the deal go through? But as to whether Halladay is better than Lee, yes, yes he is.

What were their splits against lefties and righties? Just curious, because Lee is a lefty and elite, which is a hard combination to come by.

[ewing6]

Now it saids drabek and no amount. i am confused. we gotta wait

[ragecage]

Now it saids drabek and no amount. i am confused. we gotta wait

Doug Drabek?