Featured Columnist Albert Pujols and MLB Must Eventually Face the Barry Bonds Probl

[dickay]

That's not the only way to look at them. How about - "If you haven't been caught via positive test, admission, etc., I don't know if you did steroids. If you have been caught, than you have done steroids."

you yourself has said that players should be elected into the Hof and this era be deemed the "steroid era". that alone casts a cloud amongst all players. We, well I...am not so naive as to think only the players who have used have been caught via positive test...so I will cast all with skepticism for playing in this "era" in which I beleive the vast majority of players used illegal PED's.

[Jeffy25]

i didn't read the article. i don't read that crap any longer.

I found some Griffey weight info. his early career playing weight was 203ish. His weight during the past 8 years or so has hovered mid 220s to 230. Of course, I don't believe published weight for any athlete.

Well, that would certainly be normal for a professional athlete to bulk up that amount over that many years. and I am sure he has added some additional weight now being in his 30's. Don't pretty well all players add weight over their careers? And most are usually faster the younger they are.....generalized i know. But pretty well all guys, even Ray Lankford and Felix Jose added weight as they played.

[Jeffy25]

you yourself has said that players should be elected into the Hof and this era be deemed the "steroid era". that alone casts a cloud amongst all players. We, well I...am not so naive as to think only the players who have used have been caught via positive test...so I will cast all with skepticism for playing in this "era" in which I beleive the vast majority of players used illegal PED's.

Basically you are saying they are guilty until proven innocent, HGM is saying they are innocent until proven guilty.

[dickay]

Well, that would certainly be normal for a professional athlete to bulk up that amount over that many years. and I am sure he has added some additional weight now being in his 30's. Don't pretty well all players add weight over their careers? And most are usually faster the younger they are.....generalized i know. But pretty well all guys, even Ray Lankford and Felix Jose added weight as they played.

agreed. which is why i said people use the weight issue to help their argument whichever side they sit on. If someone thinks Griffey did roids, "look he got bigger". if someone thinks he didn't, "no, its normal weight gain'. Who the fu(k REALLY knows??? Its all speculation. He played during the steroid era, that much we do know. cast all players the same, people shouldn't pick and choose who they think did or didn't based upon whether they like the player or not.

[dickay]

Basically you are saying they are guilty until proven innocent, HGM is saying they are innocent until proven guilty.

why are they guilty? why hold roids in a negative light? we don't know who or what they did, how much and why. again, all we know is they played during the steroid era, an era which it appears a large percentage were likely juicing to some extent. if it were found griffey had a positive test, would that change your perception of him? because he was doing sometihng nearly everyone was? i should hope not.

all who played during that era are the same. people try to make there heroes "better" than others by defending them as "playing clean". its all BS.

[HoustonGM]

you yourself has said that players should be elected into the Hof

Yes...

and this era be deemed the "steroid era".

I haven't said that it "should be deemed the steroid era." That's just what it has been deemed.

that alone casts a cloud amongst all players.

I agree....which is why if you haven't been caught, I won't make a judgment one way or the other. Maybe you did do steroids, maybe you didn't. I don't know.

We, well I...am not so naive as to think only the players who have used have been caught via positive test. so I will cast all with skepticism for playing in this "era" in which I beleive the vast majority of players used illegal PED's.

Agreed. But I'm also not so naive as to think that every player in the era did steroids...so, I'm not going to assume that all players did. I'm content with saying "I don't know."

Don't pretty well all players add weight over their careers?

Pretty much all people add weight over their lives.

[HoustonGM]

why are they guilty? why hold roids in a negative light? we don't know who or what they did, how much and why. again, all we know is they played during the steroid era, an era which it appears a large percentage were likely juicing to some extent. if it were found griffey had a positive test, would that change your perception of him? because he was doing sometihng nearly everyone was? i should hope not.

all who played during that era are the same. people try to make there heroes "better" than others by defending them as "playing clean". its all BS.

I agree with all this. The only thing you've said that I disagree with is:

I personally look at the whole group of players from the late 80's to 2004 as roid users. Only way to look at them.

I don't look at them as anything. They're just baseball players. If they've been caught using steroids, than I know they've done it...doesn't change my perception of them. If they haven't been caught, I don't know if they've done steroids. A good amount of those guys probably did, and a good amount probably didn't. I won't assume any player didn't do steroids, but I also won't assume that any player did do steroids.

[mtg712]

Well, mtg712 said when Pujols FIRST STARTED PLAYING BASEBALL....which was probably like when he was 10. So, yeah , I believe it.

see you got it.

[dickay]

I don't look at them as anything. They're just baseball players. If they've been caught using steroids, than I know they've done it...doesn't change my perception of them. If they haven't been caught, I don't know if they've done steroids. A good amount of those guys probably did, and a good amount probably didn't. I won't assume any player didn't do steroids, but I also won't assume that any player did do steroids.

thats a fair way of looking at it. i suppose my view is more glass half empty i guess.

i look at it in the same light, but i believe i don't hide from the fact that as you admit, a good amount DID take it thus we are in an era with bloated stats as a result. I just paint all who play in this era in the light of users, or players that participated in the "steroid era". No way we'll ever know who did or didn't do what. We do know much of the stats are bloated as a result of PED usage.

Looking at ALL as PED users doesn't put them in any different light than you do if you view NONE as PED users. I just can't compare this era with other eras where, to our knowledge, PED use wasn't nearly as prevalent. Some take issue with looking at all as PED users because, 'god forbid their heroes be called users' while those same people go ahead and without evidence paint others as users. Its wrong. If you're going to speculate on one, you must speculate on all IMO.

[BenFink]

How do you prove a random someone innocent of taking steroids?

[HoustonGM]

i look at it in the same light, but i believe i don't hide from the fact that as you admit, a good amount DID take it thus we are in an era with bloated stats as a result. I just paint all who play in this era in the light of users, or players that participated in the "steroid era". No way we'll ever know who did or didn't do what. We do know much of the stats are bloated as a result of PED usage.

We don't KNOW that. All we KNOW is that the average level of offense in this era is high. We don't KNOW the causes. Did steroid use play a role in it? Possibly....but even if it did, there's basically no chance that it was the only cause. Around 1993/1994, offensive levels shot up leaguewide. Unless you want to believe that all of a sudden a ton of players around the league decided to do steroids one offseason, there's something else at work there...perhaps a "juiced ball."

Just as the "stats are bloated" in the modern era, the stats were "shrunk" in the 1960's. This era is not unique in that there are characteristics of it that affected the run environment. All players of every era must be evaluated in the context in which they played...the reasons are really secondary and only matter when it comes to the story, not the evaluation.

[dickay]

We don't KNOW that. All we KNOW is that the average level of offense in this era is high. We don't KNOW the causes. Did steroid use play a role in it? Possibly....but even if it did, there's basically no chance that it was the only cause. Around 1993/1994, offensive levels shot up leaguewide. Unless you want to believe that all of a sudden a ton of players around the league decided to do steroids one offseason, there's something else at work there...perhaps a "juiced ball."

Just as the "stats are bloated" in the modern era, the stats were "shrunk" in the 1960's. This era is not unique in that there are characteristics of it that affected the run environment. All players of every era must be evaluated in the context in which they played...the reasons are really secondary and only matter when it comes to the story, not the evaluation.

agree with most. i never said PED use was the only reason numbers are bloated, but yes I do believe they are one of the factors. I think the decline in power numbers post anabolic steroid testing helps to prove that some of the increase was PED related. Sure you could always play conspirator and claim the ball was changed again...but i don't buy it. I think there are still PED's in use, just not as many and many used are not as effective as those that can be tested for. Thats speculative though, i agree.