This year's Hall of Fame Ballot

[BINGLEBOP]

Andres 399 Home runs kills me every time I see it.

THIS! And any other time I see a 999 or 2,999. I vaguely recall that he was going to make the Mets squad as a pinch-hitter and backup 1B but he decided to retire. DAMMIT!

All others should go in but probably only Blyleven will get in this season

I also think both Dawson and Blyleven will make it in this year.

Wow, I really hope that's true about Bert this year. If HGM says it, then it's absolutely true.

[actionjackson]

That sealed it for me.

The reason I want McGriff in is consistency. If you can put up great-to-above average numbers for 17 years, then you should be in, IMO.

Tried to show this in my above post, but here it is again in more common metrics, along with WAR.

First 9 years: 4714 PA .285/.389/.541/.930 153 OPS+ 262 HR 710 RBI .256 ISOP (Isolated Power) 36.7 WAR (4.1 WAR per year)

Final 10 years: 5460 PA .284/.367/.482/.849 119 OPS+ 231 HR 840 RBI .198 ISOP 13.8 WAR (1.4 WAR per year)

This is the portrait of a player who hung on too long, reaching for the ultimately unreachable star of 500 HR and in so doing hurt his teams more than helping them over the final 10 years. Early on, fewer plate appearances with greater impact, later more plate appearances of meh. Yes, the batting average stayed the same, but it had far less oomph behind it. That 153 OPS+ over the first nine is the same as HOF 1B Roger Connor, while the 119 OPS+ over the course of the final ten is the same as Nate Colbert, Harry Davis and Mark Grace, none of whom should ever be confused with HOF level hitting 1B. The dropoff from Connor to those three is steep.

Over the final 10 years his best 3 OPS+ seasons were 144, 142, and 125, after averaging 153 over the first 9. He capped off the first 9 seasons with 7 straight 30 HR seasons. Over the final 10, at the height of the steroid/juiced ball/corked bat era he hit 32 in '99 (having completely fallen off the map between 1995 and 1998), 31 in '01 and 30 in '02. Try to avoid getting BBWAAitis and falling under the spell of the 10 30 HR seasons and the 8 100 RBI seasons. There's so much more to it than that, particularly when you consider that that wasn't that big of a deal at all for most of the era that he played in.

Consistency you say? First 9 seasons, consistent all-star/HOF level stuff given enough seasons at that level, final 10 seasons, consistent meh, particularly from the 1B position in that era. Add in a little bit of a penalty for slightly below average defense as well and you have a Hall Of Very Gooder, not a Hall Of Famer.

Finally, re: WAR/year, let's go to Los Angeles. Last year Angels' 1B Kendry Morales, a Gold Glove type defender and inferior hitter to the good McGriff, had a 4.2 WAR season. Just down the interstate, James Loney played slightly above average defense and crapped the bed offensively, finishing with a 1.4 WAR season. I don't need to tell you the difference between the crosstown 1B, you could probably look it up on Angels' and Dodgers' blogs on the interwebs. That difference is the same as the difference between the Fred McGriff of 1986 through 1994 and the Fred McGriff of 1995 through 2004. I'm sure some Dodger fans on our friendly neighbourhood forum invented new cuss words for Loney's craptacularity so far in his career. It's not exactly something ballplayer's strive for. Only Adam Dunn and his abysmal defense (he did spend more time in the OF though), Daniel Murphy and Aubrey Huff were of less value to their teams at 1B than Loney.

[free2131]

Notice that I said great to above average. I know he went through a decline. I also know that with any other player, I might be more unbiased, but the Braves got McGriff around the time I really fell in love with baseball.

So, he is a fringe HOF, who probably doesn't deserve to be in. I reserve the right to play my homer card, and since I'm not saying Mark Lemke should be in the hall, I think you can give me a pass on this one.

[actionjackson]

THIS! And any other time I see a 999 or 2,999. I vaguely recall that he was going to make the Mets squad as a pinch-hitter and backup 1B but he decided to retire. DAMMIT!





Wow, I really hope that's true about Bert this year. If HGM says it, then it's absolutely true.

It would be so looong overdue, it's ridiculous. He is flat out the best player that is eligible for induction and yet year after year he's passed over for far inferior players *cough Jim Rice cough, cough*.

Top 20 all-time pitchers in WAR (not the best stat for pitchers, but the most easily accessible):

Cy Young, Roger Clemens, Walter Johnson, Tom Seaver, Pete Alexander, Kid Nichols, Lefty Grove, Greg Maddux, Phil Niekro, Gaylord Perry, Warren Spahn, Randy Johnson, Bert Blyleven, Christy Mathewson, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Steve Carlton, Tim Keefe, John Clarkson, and Fergie Jenkins. There's no doubt about the others HOF status (Clemens misremembering issues aside). Why is there any doubt about Rik Aalbert Blyleven's? It's gone from sublime to ridiculous. All of those pitchers are in already except Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, and Blyleven. The first three guys are ineligible and won't be eligible until 2013 when Clemens becomes eligible, with Maddux becoming eligible in 2014. God knows when Randy Johnson will become eligible, so just put "Circle Me" Bert in already.

[dps]

I haven't voted in this poll yet. Off hand I'd vote for Baines, Blyleven, Dawson, Raines, and Trammel (all guys I would have voted for last year), plus McGwire (who I should have supported last time), Larkin, and Martinez.

I finally voted, and I ended up staying with the 8 guys I mentioned in my first post. There were several tough borderline cases on this year's ballot, and I might change my mind on some of those guys next year.

Incidentally, if our poll is any reflection of what the voters will do, only Alomar and Blyleven will go in this year, and just barely (both right at the required 75% after I voted).

[actionjackson]

Notice that I said great to above average. I know he went through a decline. I also know that with any other player, I might be more unbiased, but the Braves got McGriff around the time I really fell in love with baseball.

So, he is a fringe HOF, who probably doesn't deserve to be in. I reserve the right to play my homer card, and since I'm not saying Mark Lemke should be in the hall, I think you can give me a pass on this one.

Ah yes, lol on Lemke. The Scrappy McSrapperstein of his day.

Pete Rose (who has major issues in terms of the HOF), Mark McGwire (one of the primary scapegoats of the steroid era), the bristly Dick Allen, and slick fielding Keith Hernandez should all be put in before Fred McGriff. Next year the list of guys deserving to go in will be extended by the inclusion of Jeff Bagwell, who was one of the greatest and most underrated 1B of all-time, another dude with issues: Rafael Palmeiro, and one of McGriff's fellow fringe HOFers: John Olerud. Also on the bubble with McGriff are Will Clark and Norm Cash, 2 guys who had higher WAR scores in far less playing time than McGriff. Then there are active players like (El Hombre) Albert Pujols, Jim Thome, and on the bubble active players like Todd Helton and Jason Giambi.

I love the guy, but he's really up against it at 1B. My favourite stories about McGriff are the outrage expressed by Pat Gillick's wife Doris when he traded him to San Diego and the way he was acquired from the Yankees. RP Dale "Spud" Murray, and OF Tom Dodd (16 lifetime PA for BAL in 1986) were sent to the Yankees. Coming back to the Jays were OF Dave Collins (another scrapper and a very good backup OF/OK starting LF), SP Mike Morgan, cash, and a prospect. Gillick, the sly dog that he is, made it appear to the Yankees that McGriff was plan C, when that was his target all along. I'm not sure who plan A and plan B were, but they were rebuffed immediately by the Yankees, so he inquired about some 18 year old 1B who had just completed his second season of Rookie ball in the Gulf Coast League. What a heist. It put GMs on notice that Gillick could pick you clean if you didn't watch it.

All you have to do is look at his rule V picks over the years to see the threat he posed. Jim Acker, George Bell, Jim Gott, Kelly Gruber, Manuel Lee, Jose Nunez and Willie Upshaw all came out of this draft. None were superstars, but they all made a positive contribution and Bell and Gruber played at an all-star level during some seasons in Toronto. Geronimo Berroa, Xavier Hernandez, and Graeme Lloyd were plucked from the organization and went on to have decent seasons elsewhere.

But I digress. To paraphrase Allen Iverson, we're talking 'bout Crime Dog...I mean it's only Crime Dog etc etc etc ad nauseam.

[HoustonGM]

Incidentally, if our poll is any reflection of what the voters will do, only Alomar and Blyleven will go in this year, and just barely (both right at the required 75% after I voted).

It's not - at all. There's a lot of quirky and joke votes that throw off the overall percentages...like 200tang voting only for David Segui.

Next year the list of guys deserving to go in will be extended by the inclusion of Jeff Bagwell, who was one of the greatest and most underrated 1B of all-time, another dude with issues: Rafael Palmeiro, and one of McGriff's fellow fringe HOFers: John Olerud

Don't forget Kevin Brown and Larry Walker, who probably both won't get any support from the writers but each have very impressive resumes.

[actionjackson]

It's not - at all. There's a lot of quirky and joke votes that throw off the overall percentages...like 200tang voting only for David Segui.


Don't forget Kevin Brown and Larry Walker, who probably both won't get any support from the writers but each have very impressive resumes.

I was sticking with 1B only, as the sentence that opens the next paragraph: "I love the guy, but he's really up against it at 1B..." would indicate. As for Brown and Walker, both should sail in, but we all know how quirky those pesky writers can be.

[HoustonGM]

Ah, I gotcha.

[dps]

It's not - at all. There's a lot of quirky and joke votes that throw off the overall percentages

Oh, yeah, I know. I was just sayin'.

BTW, I do expect Alomar to do well; he may not get 75% this year, but I figure that he'll almost certainly be selected by the writers at some point. How soon depends largely on how much BBWAA members penalize him for the spitting incident--not necessarily just directly penalizing him, but how much the matter clouds their persception of him. He is fortunate that his strengths pretty much play right into the things the writers have traditionally gone for in HoF votes.

[200tang]

Stop Hawking Hawk

[BINGLEBOP]

Eddie and others (jpz17, Kellys11, nwu, rschusta24, slickydo, yanks27, etc.), why did you elect not to vote for Blyleven? Curious.

[200tang]

lol, I like that you name Eddie and then just lump everyone else in to "others".

[FloydtheBarber]

lol, I like that you name Eddie and then just lump everyone else in to "others".

Bingle as a fatherly role in Eddie's life (Even though his name is Daniel... lol)

[BINGLEBOP]

lol, I like that you name Eddie and then just lump everyone else in to "others".

LOL! Well, I was initially going to pose the question only to Eddie, but then I decided not to put the spotlight on only him (even though it is now!), so I looked at who else didn't vote for him. Although I only looked at those who voted for Alomar and not Blyleven, so I'm sure I missed a couple more.

Bingle as a fatherly role in Eddie's life (Even though his name is Daniel... lol)

Only when he was a genius. After he gave up the title, I disowned him and kicked him out of the house. I've since adopted a Somalian child named N'dgidimalapa.