Charlie Hustle and Shoeless Joe

[ragecage]

Yet he still played the best of anyone on the White Sox in the series

Pretty much. The 5,000 dollars was apparently left in his room by Lefty Williams after Joe refused to take it. Even the other 7 players denied that Joe was in any of the meetings to participate in the fix.

[rockiesfan4ever]

Pretty much. The 5,000 dollars was apparently left in his room by Lefty Williams after Joe refused to take it. Even the other 7 players denied that Joe was in any of the meetings to participate in the fix.

Exactly and everyone knew he couldn't read or write

[HoustonGM]

Yet he still played the best of anyone on the White Sox in the series

That doesn't excuse him from being a part of it.

Needless to say, I'd be more willing to reinstate Jackson than I would Rose.

[ragecage]

Thats good HGM, all the point I was trying to make that its not 100% fact that Shoeless threw the World Series. I dont think the ruling to ban him is totally justified unlike the other players involved.

[acetoolguy]

Waiting till after he dies is just plain spiteful. I see no point in that. Baseball is allowed to have its own standards. If they say betting on the game is a baseball death penalty and everybody knows it, you have no gripe when you are caught betting on the game and are banned. Its a tricky road when you grant exceptions for achievment.

[MeetDaMets]

Thats good HGM, all the point I was trying to make that its not 100% fact that Shoeless threw the World Series. I dont think the ruling to ban him is totally justified unlike the other players involved.

agree

[acetoolguy]

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

Thats the rule for anybody who has not seen it. It is posted in every club house in english and spanish. The first part says a 1 year suspension for betting on a game you played no part in. I dont see any exceptions for the hit leader....

[actionjackson]

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

Thats the rule for anybody who has not seen it. It is posted in every club house in english and spanish. The first part says a 1 year suspension for betting on a game you played no part in. I dont see any exceptions for the hit leader....

And permanent has to mean permanent, otherwise why post that rule in the clubhouses? Gambling on a game in which you are personally involved almost reduces that entire league to WWF/WWE status where the outcome is pre-determined. It is a huge stain on any league and should be dealt with extremely harshly. If permanent suddenly becomes 20 years and entry into the HOF if you were a great player, that opens up a Pandora's Box. Then, 20 years becomes 15 and 15 becomes 10 and so on. In the case of Rose, he lied about betting on his own team for what 15 or so years? Keep him out.

[ragecage]

And permanent has to mean permanent, otherwise why post that rule in the clubhouses? Gambling on a game in which you are personally involved almost reduces that entire league to WWF/WWE status where the outcome is pre-determined. It is a huge stain on any league and should be dealt with extremely harshly. If permanent suddenly becomes 20 years and entry into the HOF if you were a great player, that opens up a Pandora's Box. Then, 20 years becomes 15 and 15 becomes 10 and so on. In the case of Rose, he lied about betting on his own team for what 15 or so years? Keep him out.

what about 85 years, when all the facts are just not there to warrant expulsion like in Joes case?

[actionjackson]

Buck Weaver and Fred McMullin were banned for life for not reporting the scheme to league authorities. You're not going to convince me that Shoeless Joe knew nothing of the fix considering the fact that Lefty Williams allegedly left the $5,000 in his room. While not as serious a crime as throwing the World Series, knowing about the scheme and not reporting it is kind of like acting as an accessory to the fix and Jackson at the bare minimum did that. Weaver and McMullin have not been re-instated. I don't see people getting all weepy about that. Why not? Could it have something to do with the fact that Joe Jackson had more talent in his pinky finger than those two combined? Just because you're talented (see Rose, Pete) does not put you above the rules of the game, the greatest of which is the rule about wagering on games you're involved in. I know they're both HOFers, but they should never be allowed in because of the slippery slope such a reversal would create.

[acetoolguy]

I think its a disservice to lump these two together. Each has to stand on its merit.
Not that I'm saying there is anything wrong with the poll, just making sure we know letting one in does nothing for the chance of the other.

[ragecage]

Buck Weaver and Fred McMullin were banned for life for not reporting the scheme to league authorities. You're not going to convince me that Shoeless Joe knew nothing of the fix considering the fact that Lefty Williams allegedly left the $5,000 in his room. While not as serious a crime as throwing the World Series, knowing about the scheme and not reporting it is kind of like acting as an accessory to the fix and Jackson at the bare minimum did that. Weaver and McMullin have not been re-instated. I don't see people getting all weepy about that. Why not? Could it have something to do with the fact that Joe Jackson had more talent in his pinky finger than those two combined? Just because you're talented (see Rose, Pete) does not put you above the rules of the game, the greatest of which is the rule about wagering on games you're involved in. I know they're both HOFers, but they should never be allowed in because of the slippery slope such a reversal would create.

On the other side of the coin though AJ, if the players reported the said crime, it could have put their lives in serious risk because of the mobsters that were involved in the scandal. And apparently these players didnt make a whole lot of money back in the day (which is why this very thing happened with cheapskate Comiskey), would you put your family and yourself at risk in that regard to exploit the scheme? I dont think I would.

[President]

Joe wanted to tell Comiskey, but Comiskey wouldn't give him the day of time.

[ragecage]

I think Comiskey and the owners deserved as much blame for the Scandal as the players themselves. Comiskey was a greedy old fart and if he just showed some respect and maybe owned up to the contracts he gave out by letting them have a chance to earn it other than sitting them when they are close to their clauses, the whole events would have never happened.

Its easy to blame the players in the Scandal, but when you look at the very root of the events that took place, you can look at no other than Comiskey. He got off very light, he was still able to treat his players like crap, and as you can see, he had a championship caliber team and after that they didnt do nothing because he wouldnt pay for anybody.

[actionjackson]

A valid point and you can't be in Witness Protection (if it even existed) and play in the major leagues of baseball. The two are 100% mutually exclusive.

Jackson should still be out as long as Weaver and McMullin are out though. Those three have a far better case than Pete "I didn't do it, I didn't do it, I didn't do it...wait a second if I confess will you reinstate me? Ok, (in his best Jimmy Swaggart voice) I have sinned...I bet on my own team blah blah blah...There that good enough? Can I be reinstated now please, please, please, can I, huh, huh, huh." Rose. Reinstate all 3 or don't reinstate any of them. It is absolutely an all or nothing in this case.

And Comiskey wasn't the only cheapskate owner in baseball. They pretty much all were. The players had less than zero rights.