Nats failure thread

[Sipimi]

Raines/Carter/Dawson were the top 3 players in Expos history.

I'd say Vlad deserves to be on that top 3, don't you think?

[HoustonGM]

I'd say Vlad deserves to be on that top 3, don't you think?

He played a lot less than the other 3 - 2,000 plate appearances or so, which is about 3-4 seasons worth.

By WAR w/ Montreal:

Gary Carter - 52.3
Tim Raines - 46
Andre Dawson - 43.6
Vlad Guerrero - 32.4

[Sipimi]

He played a lot less than the other 3 - 2,000 plate appearances or so, which is about 3-4 seasons worth.

By WAR w/ Montreal:

Gary Carter - 52.3
Tim Raines - 46
Andre Dawson - 43.6
Vlad Guerrero - 32.4

I stand corrected. Can you post the link to those stats HGM? I'd like to see where Rogers, Wallach and others stand.

[etothep]

The Detroit statues incorporate motion, but they do a way better job. For example, Hal Newhouser has the proper amount of limbs.

Who the hell considers that better?

[HoustonGM]

I stand corrected. Can you post the link to those stats HGM?

http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/g/guerv001.htm
http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/c/cartg001.htm
http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/d/dawsa001.htm
http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/r/raint001.htm

It's just the playing time difference, really. If you give Guerrero another 3-4 years worth at his average of 4 WAR per season (which is actually unfavorable to him since I counted his partial 1996 and 1997 seasons as one full season), he'd be right around Dawson/Raines.

[Sipimi]

It's just the playing time difference, really. If you give Guerrero another 3-4 years worth at his average of 4 WAR per season (which is actually unfavorable to him since I counted his partial 1996 and 1997 seasons as one full season), he'd be right around Dawson/Raines.

From those WAR numbers, Steve Rogers (45.8) would be ahead of Dawson in 3rd position. Now I understand why my uncle could never shut up about him!

[HoustonGM]

I'd rank Dawson higher than Rogers if I was doing a ranking. 2 wins isn't very much when spread over the course of 10+ seasons, and Dawson was a 6 WAR player at his peak, while Rogers was more like a 4 WAR player, so a "career" WAR difference of 2 is easily overcome by the peak difference for me.

[CCamels73]

It would be nice if rather than appropriating the history of the Minnesota Twins organization (Walter Johnson), the Texas Rangers organization (Frank Howard), or possibly the greatest hitter in the history of the game (Josh Gibson) who played for the Homestead (Pennsylvania) Grays who adopted Washington, DC as their "home away from home" and played many of their games at Griffith Stadium, home of the Washington Senators, now known as the Minnesota Twins, they would celebrate their own history with statues of Tim Raines, Andre Dawson, and Gary Carter and the great farm system that produced greats such as the above three and Randy Johnson and Larry Walker among many other very good players. Of course it would probably be a really painful exercise to look back and realize that the organization was run a million times better in Montreal than it is currently being run in Washington, so they might not want to do that, but still it would be nice if they celebrated their own history rather than somebody else's.

I don't think you understand the mentality of the baseball fan in DC. IMO it's akin to the football fan of the Ravens. Do they acknowledge the existence of a team prior to the Ravens? Or do they lovingly accept the memory of the Colts?
I am not saying that Expos fans wont see the Nats as "their team" and continue to root for them. But I feel (and I think alot of local baseball fans feel) that the Nationals are more an extension of the Senators than than the Expos.

That being said, Walter Johnson is one the most memorable baseball players to play in DC, so they erected a statue of him, whats not to like about that? Its not like the Twins were jumping up and down to get a statue of the guy.

[haveacigar]

Who the hell considers that better?

I have this weird thing where I don't want my baseball heroes mutated.

[Sipimi]

I'd rank Dawson higher than Rogers if I was doing a ranking. 2 wins isn't very much when spread over the course of 10+ seasons, and Dawson was a 6 WAR player at his peak, while Rogers was more like a 4 WAR player, so a "career" WAR difference of 2 is easily overcome by the peak difference for me.

Thanks for your opinion. It would be really useful to have a site where they show every team all-time WAR leaders (per position, per decade, etc.) so that we could make that kind of comparison easily.

Just checked some Expos' players and, even though everybody always said that Andres Galarraga was the most valuable 1B in the history of the team, I just realized that Ron Faily was more valuable (10+ WAR) than Galarraga.

[actionjackson]

you have to be trolling here..... Do these players really deserve their own statues? I dont know about the ones that have statues ( I am not familiar with them), but IMHO these players you have mentioned do not.

This is the ultimate pot calling the kettle black statement and it a) p!sses me off and b) demonstrates your ignorance about those three players, not to mention the 3 that actually have statues that you're unfamiliar with. To claim that you're unfamiliar with Walter "Big Train" Johnson, Josh Gibson, and Frank "Hondo" Howard and then turn around and accuse me of trolling for extolling the virtues of a HoFer and a should be HoFer (Carter and Raines) and a Hall of Very Gooder who happens to be in the Hall (Dawson) is, to put it mildly, pretty fu(king hypocritical.

Carter is a top 5 all-time catcher and a no-brainer HoFer. Raines would already be in the Hall, if the BBWAA could extract their heads from their a$$e$ and recognize his greatness. He's barely outside the top 10 all-time in LF and probably the third best leadoff hitter behind the always overlooked Billy Hamilton and Rickey Henderson. As for Dawson, according to the BBWAA (not me) he's a HoFer. As HGM said, they were at their best with the Expos (now the Nationals) and when you think about their careers, you think of them as Expos. To put it another way, when Raines joins Carter and Dawson in Cooperstown all three will wear Expos caps and thus are greats that are part of the Washington Nationals organization's history whether they choose to acknowledge it or not.

[etothep]

I have this weird thing where I don't want my baseball heroes mutated.

As long as you're willing to admit that you're the weird one for thinking that

[CCamels73]

This is the ultimate pot calling the kettle black statement .

I hate to get off topic but when have I ever trolled in these forums? maybe you could refresh my memory....

Does it really bother you that the Nationals organization erected statues to great players (yes I have since updated my knowledge about them) that played in DC not QC (Montreal). Which do you you think means more to baseball in the Capital? Players that played through great years in Canada, or locally? I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure that out!

[etothep]

How about we not let the Nationals erect statues of anyone or anything until they can finish a season with a winning record or at least finish better than 4th in their division

[200tang]

I have this weird thing where I don't want my baseball heroes mutated.

That is pretty weird. I'd love for Ichiro to grow 2 extra sets of hands and go up to bat with 3 bats.