This is the same exact game as 2009.

[filihok]

Well, all I'm arguing with is the idea that it's perfect. I don't disagree that it's good. I just don't like the predicted-stats premise.

Also, here's two players I pulled off a random file:

related to

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=194058

?


This game has obviously been simmed will into the future. With the ratings rise this forces above average players to have average stats

[HoustonGM]

Yes, it's probably not good to draw any conclusions from future fictional players created with BM 2010 (and even 2009). Too many issues.

[Cards]

Once again, the K-rate tells you nothing.

Adam Dunn and Ryan Howard and Jack Cust are all much better hitters than Placido Polanco, Juan Pierre, and Yadier Molina.

You haven't been paying attention to Yadi lately, have you?
He's getting better at the plate with every AB. One of the hardest men in all of baseball to K and he gets many key hits now. Matter of fact, he had the lone RBI in tonight's loss. He couldn't do that if he K'd as Howard frequently does. He is no Ryan Howard or Adam Dunn slugger/K artist, nor does he pretend to be or want to be. He will make good contact and your team needs a good combination of BA and SLG, not just pure SLG, SLG, SLG, SLG, SLG because the player is usually susceptible to a good K pitcher. Those pitchers will make mincemeat and a fool of the Dunn/Howard players more often than they will hurt him because they are lower-BA (although Howard hits .280-.300 compared to real-low BA .250-.275 Dunn) most years.

Maybe you better pay more attention to Yadi's great development as a hitter?

2008, highest 5 in K% - Jack Cust, Mark Reynolds, Carlos Pena, Ryan Howard Dan Uggla
2008, lowest 5 in K% - Bengie Molina, Placido Polanco, Casey Kotchman, Yuniesky Betancourt, Dustin Pedroia

2007, highest - Jack Cust, Ryan Howard, B.J. Upton, Adam Dunn, Jim Thome
2007, lowest - Placido Polanco, Juan Pierre, Dustin Pedroia, Luis Castillo, Kenji Johjima

So, what's your point, if any?
Something wrong with having Juan Pierre or Dustin Pedroia on your team instead of high-K, low-BA Adam Dunn who can be pitched around if 1b is open?

Something wrong with having B. Molina as your catcher; how about Y. Molina, who is even better than his 2 brothers both defensively and now probably offensively. You do realize Yadi and Benjie are CATCHERS and that is a totally different animal than a 1b-man, with defense much more important (same for 2b/SS) than mere SLG, SLG, SLG ability?

[HoustonGM]

Maybe you better pay more attention to Yadi's great development as a hitter?

I never said Molina isn't a good hitter. He's not as good as Adam Dunn, Ryan Howard, Grady Sizemore, Dan Uggla, Carlos Pena, etc., though.

So, what's your point, if any?

My point is that K-rate is not related to how valuable of a hitter you are.

Something wrong with having Juan Pierre or Dustin Pedroia on your team instead of high-K, low-BA Adam Dunn who can be pitched around if 1b is open?

Well, if your goal is to win, then yes, there's something wrong with having Juan Pierre in your lineup if you have the option of using Adam Dunn.

Something wrong with having B. Molina as your catcher; how about Y. Molina, who is even better than his 2 brothers both defensively and now probably offensively. You do realize Yadi and Benjie are CATCHERS and that is a totally different animal than a 1b-man, with defense much more important (same for 2b/SS) than mere SLG, SLG, SLG ability?

I'm talking about them as hitters, not as overall players.

[flapper]

For hitters, what categories are most important in determining the better hitter?

I consider OBA a significant category, if that's the case that would make Dunn a better hitter than Pierre.

[HoustonGM]

Getting on base (ie. not making outs) and hitting for power are the two most important skills for a hitter.

[Cards]

I never said Molina isn't a good hitter. He's not as good as Adam Dunn, Ryan Howard, Grady Sizemore, Dan Uggla, Carlos Pena, etc., though.


My point is that K-rate is not related to how valuable of a hitter you are.

Well, if your goal is to win, then yes, there's something wrong with having Juan Pierre in your lineup if you have the option of using Adam Dunn.

Not if Dunn strikesout. Which he does MUCH MORE than hitting a HR. If you believe the statistics on him, year-in, year-out.

I'm talking about them as hitters, not as overall players.

Yes, same here.
But, again it's hard to compare Molina (any of them) to Dunn, since a good CATCHER is far rarer than your run-of-the-mill high-K, low-BA OF'er.

[HoustonGM]

Not if Dunn strikesout. Which he does MUCH MORE than hitting a HR. If you believe the statistics on him, year-in, year-out.

So, even though Dunn makes outs less, and hits for a lot more power (thus advancing runners and driving them in better), he's worse than Juan Pierre because Pierre rarely strikes out (even though he makes a huge amount of outs overall)?

Yes, same here.

Than why are we talking about the position they play?

But, again it's hard to compare Molina (any of them) to Dunn, since a good CATCHER is far rarer than your run-of-the-mill high-K, low-BA OF'er.

No, it's not, considering I'm talking solely about what makes a valuable hitter. Strikeout rate is irrelevant to how valuable a player is at the plate.

[Cards]

For hitters, what categories are most important in determining the better hitter?

I consider OBA a significant category, if that's the case that would make Dunn a better hitter than Pierre.

If you take the bat out of Dunn's hands by walking (pitching around) him and nobody good behind him to drive him around or home, that's what the defense will do and therefore, the OBA isn't as meaningful in those cases.
That much-vaunted OBA should be re-defined by SUBTRACTING all IWs instead of counting them in with his other *earned* Ws.

Just my personal bias.

[HoustonGM]

If you take the bat out of Dunn's hands by walking (pitching around) him and nobody good behind him to drive him around or home, that's what the defense will do and therefore, the OBA isn't as meaningful in those cases.

This has nothing to do with the value of the individual player.

That much-vaunted OBA should be re-defined by SUBTRACTING all IWs instead of counting them in with his other *earned* Ws.

Why? On base percentage measures how often a player gets on base. Intentional walks = getting on base.

[Cards]

So, even though Dunn makes outs less, and hits for a lot more power (thus advancing runners and driving them in better), he's worse than Juan Pierre because Pierre rarely strikes out (even though he makes a huge amount of outs overall)?

Less O / PA ?

If just counting O by itself, what context does that do in evaluating a batter?

It would be more accurate to always use O / PA in evaluating batters, not just O's by itself.

Besides that, Dunn makes less O's because he gets a lot of IWs or PA's, so the raw number of (fewer) O's isn't placed in context. W's are better than O's, but *somebody* has to swing the bat or the pitcher will just pour straight strikes over the middle of the plate and K everybody if you are just looking for W's.

Today you *may* want Dunn strictly as a power guy. Tomorrow (2 years max.), you may want Yadi Molina, strictly as a hitter over the high-K, low-BA hitters such as Dunn. And that doesn't count how many O's Yadi will get you PO runners--as he did again Monday night in the Cardinals' win. Hey, an O saved defensively is just as good (if not better) than taking a deliberate IW or PA W as a hitter!

BTW, Dunn is presently hitting .328 (64 ABs) with 13 K's; but that. 328 is far above his usual .248 career average. OBA: .383 (career)
Molina: .353 BA OBA: .423. 7 K in 68 ABs. SLG: .529 Not bad, eh!

Molina is about as good as Dunn presently, and since Molina is years younger, he is the one to pick, not counting his C position--exc. for his great PO ability (16 A total already in '09) on errant runners. How many has Dunn PO'd, or got an A? LOL!
(answer: 0 A)

Than why are we talking about the position they play?

Because good catchers are rarer than your typical OF'er.

No, it's not, considering I'm talking solely about what makes a valuable hitter. Strikeout rate is irrelevant to how valuable a player is at the plate.

Yadi is practically equal to Dunn as a hitter *now*, not even counting how many PO's and A's he gets compared to Dunn's A's.

[Cards]

This has nothing to do with the value of the individual player.


Why? On base percentage measures how often a player gets on base. Intentional walks = getting on base.

But he didn't EARN it. The defense gave him a FREE PASS as a strategy option.
That's why they keep track of IW's now (since 1955).
Takes the bat out of the slugger's hands, so it shouldn't be counted the same as an EARNED Walk where the pitcher actually PITCHES to him. That's how I see it.

[HoustonGM]

Less O / PA ?

If just counting O by itself, what context does that do in evaluating a batter?

It would be more accurate to always use O / PA in evaluating batters, not just O's by itself.

Uh, that's called on-base percentage.

Besides that, Dunn makes less O's because he gets a lot of IWs or PA's, so the raw number of (fewer) O's isn't placed in context

Dunn gets roughly 10 IBB's per year. He still walks over 100 times on his own.

Today you *may* want Dunn strictly as a power guy. Tomorrow (2 years max.), you may want Yadi Molina, strictly as a hitter over the high-K, low-BA hitters such as Dunn. And that doesn't count how many O's Yadi will get you PO runners--as he did again Monday night in the Cardinals' win. Hey, an O saved defensively is just as good (if not better) than taking a deliberate IW or PA W as a hitter!

Well, again, we're not talking about them as overall players.

BTW, Dunn is presently hitting .328 (64 ABs) with 13 K's; but that. 328 is far above his usual .248 career average. OBA: .383
Molina: .353 BA OBA: .423. 7 K in 68 ABs. SLG: .529 Not bad, eh!

So, either way you slice the ball with BA or OBA, Molina is better than Dunn presently,

Okay, um, WTF? You cite Dunn's season numbers, then dismiss them as being far above his career averages....and then compare the players by using Molina's 18 games in 2009 vs. Dunn's entire career? And that's proof that "Molina is better than Dunn presently?" What in hell's name? That is some of the most baffling stat manipulation I've ever seen.

and since Molina is years younger, he is the one to pick, not counting his C position--exc. for his great PO ability (16 A total already in '09) on errant runners. How many has Dunn PO'd, or got an A? LOL!
(answer: 0 A)

I have no idea what you're saying here. 16 A? 16 what? A usually means assists, but Yadier has 13 of those. And, if that is indeed what you're comparing, are you seriously comparing raw assist totals of a corner outfielder vs. a catcher? WHAT?

Because good catchers are rarer than your typical OF'er.

But, we're talking about OFFENSIVE VALUE, position independent.

Ok, Molina beats Dunn in your OBA measurement.

Um, no, he doesn't. At all. Where the hell are you getting this from?

Yadi is better than Dunn as a hitter

No, he is not. That is absolutely laughable.

not even counting how many PO's and A's he gets compared to Dunn's A's.

Well, I'm not sure why you would count that when discussing hitting....but it is monumentally stupid to compare raw fielding putouts and assists cross-position. Adam Dunn is not a good fielder, that's correct. Yadier Molina is an excellent fielder, that's correct. Their overall value as players is a lot closer than the difference in their offensive abilities, but, once again, that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing how a player's strikeout rate tells you nothing about his overall offensive value.

[HoustonGM]

But he didn't EARN it. The defense gave him a FREE PASS as a strategy option.
That's why they keep track of IW's now (since 1955).
Takes the bat out of the slugger's hands, so it shouldn't be counted the same as an EARNED Walk where the pitcher actually PITCHES to him. That's how I see it.

Well, OBP isn't concerned with that. All it is concerned with is "Did the hitter make an out?" Removing IBB's from OBP is silly, because IBB's are getting on-base, which is what OBP measures.

And again, even removing IBB's, Dunn gets on base a lot.

[actionjackson]

That much-vaunted OBA should be re-defined by SUBTRACTING all IWs instead of counting them in with his other *earned* Ws.

Just my personal bias.

This is ludicrous. Any hitter earns his intentional walks because the other teams recognize the offensive threat that he represents. I guarantee you this: nobody would intentionally walk Juan "The Out Machine" Pierre, unless he was batting in front of a pitcher (not big Z or Micah Owings or any others that may elude me at the moment - a crappy hitting pitcher). If he did, he should be fired on the spot.

As for this "much vaunted OBA" garbage: baseball is a very simple game. You either make an out or you don't make an out or you get charged with making an out because some schmuck on the other team had a brain cramp in the field. I'll take the guys who don't make outs. You can take your Omar Moreno (The King of Outmakers) type hitters. Over the course of a long season I guarantee you my team will come out on top as far as runs scored. That's a fact, Jack.