And so it starts.

[gRYFYN1]

I am watching the Red Sox/Mets preseason game and what comes up, but lo and behold, the media's favorite whipping boy Adam Dunn!

a few great snippets of the conversation

Ann #1: Adam Dunn has always reminded me of Dave Kingman, a guy who hits alot of home runs but doesn't help you win. But, he showed me something in the WBC.

Ann #2: Well Adam Dunn does bring more to the table ..

Ann#1: Well Dave Kingman could steal you some bases. He was a heckuva athlete.

Perhaps we can sticky a season thread of all the nonsense the media spews about poor Adam Dunn.

[OldFatGuy]

Perhaps we can sticky a season thread of all the nonsense the media spews about poor Adam Dunn.

Do it.

I'll be more than happy to add my own to it.

But for now, I'll go back and check out how many pennant the Reds won with his obvious ability to help you win. Shouldn't take me too long. I'm thinking the answer is.............NONE.

And he obviously helped Arizona over the hump last year.

And the Nats this year are likely to win no more than 70 games with him, or without him.

And I'll be sure to post every time he strikes out with less than two outs and a man on third too.

[EVEN11323]

Good thing there is a huge discrepancy in their SBs in their first 8 seasons to back up his point, eh?

[gRYFYN1]

But for now, I'll go back and check out how many pennant the Reds won with his obvious ability to help you win. Shouldn't take me too long. I'm thinking the answer is.............NONE.

Same amount that Ted Williams won ... now there was a bad hitter.

[OldFatGuy]

Same amount that Ted Williams won ... now there was a bad hitter.

I don't think I said Adam Dunn was a BAD hitter.

You said this:

a guy who hits alot of home runs but doesn't help you win.

was nonsense. Right??? This was one of the quotes you said was nonsense.

Well Adam Dunn does hit a lot of home runs. And his teams haven't won. So where's the nonsense?

[KowboyKoop]

Do it.

I'll be more than happy to add my own to it.

But for now, I'll go back and check out how many pennant the Reds won with his obvious ability to help you win. Shouldn't take me too long. I'm thinking the answer is.............NONE.

And he obviously helped Arizona over the hump last year.

And the Nats this year are likely to win no more than 70 games with him, or without him.

And I'll be sure to post every time he strikes out with less than two outs and a man on third too.

So, what you are saying is that Ken Griffey Jr. has never been a good baseball player.

[OldFatGuy]

So, what you are saying is that Ken Griffey Jr. has never been a good baseball player.

Show me where I said Adam Dunn sucks. Please. Perhaps I've forgotten it, and I did say I wished the Nats hadn't signed him, but I really don't remember saying he sucked.

Could be wrong. I've been wrong so many times I'm used to it. So show me.

EDIT: WOW, I see you edited the word sucks to has never been a good baseball player.

OK, fair enough.

FWIW, I don't think Ken Griffey has never been a good baseballl player. I think Ken Griffey is a great player.

[RedsoxRockies]

I don't think I said Adam Dunn was a BAD hitter.

You said this:


was nonsense. Right??? This was one of the quotes you said was nonsense.

Well Adam Dunn does hit a lot of home runs. And his teams haven't won. So where's the nonsense?

His teams have not won because there has not been enough good players on the team. Ryan Zimmerman has never made the playoffs, so does he not help a team win?

[OldFatGuy]

His teams have not won because there has not been enough good players on the team. Ryan Zimmerman has never made the playoffs, so does he not help a team win?

No, RSR, I'm not the one doing the extrapolating here, you guys are.

So first, you show me what was so nonsensical about the statement I quoted, then I'll play your extrapolation games.

[gRYFYN1]

I
was nonsense. Right??? This was one of the quotes you said was nonsense.

Well Adam Dunn does hit a lot of home runs. And his teams haven't won. So where's the nonsense?

yep anyone who get on base 40% of the time and hits 40 HRS a year is certainly not helping your team win.

Helps your team win:

610 	105  	153 	26 	4 	48 	146 	1 	1 	81 	199 	.251  	.339 	.543  	.881  	124

Dosent help your team win

568 	105  	151  	34  	0  	46  	102  	6  	1  	108  	195  	.266  	.388 	.569  	.956

[OldFatGuy]

Ok, I think I get it now. You're taking it absolutely literally whereas I'm not, and I don't think he/the media means it literaly either.

It's a comparison thing, not a literal thing.

Adam Dunn will make 1/3 the amount of money Manny Ramirez will this year. ONE THIRD. Yet he probably averages more home runs per year than Manny does. EDIT: [And IMO this is a good comparison because they were both free agents at the exact same time and they both play the same position, so both could've been had by any team at any price. Manny got $25,000,000 while Dunn got $8,000,000.]

Why???

Because Adam Dunn hits home runs like Manny, or Barry, or whatever, but he doesn't get paid like them. Why???

Are you suggesting it's because everyone, all GM's, managers, scouts, in baseball are idiots??? Or is it maybe, just maybe, because those professionals that play the game see that his lack of consistant contact keeps him from helping the team win as much as most other 40HR a year guys do? I think that's where the criticism comes from. He's (just like Dave Kingman years ago) could hit 30-40 every year, but because they lacked something else they weren't as adept at helping their teams win as other 30-40 home run guys are.

Not sure if that makes sense, but I think maybe you're taking the statement literally whereas it's meant in more of a comparitive way.

But, as I've said before, I could be wrong, have been many, many times before.

[KowboyKoop]

Saying a player doesn't help a team win is the same as saying a player sucks.

[HoustonGM]

Why???

Because Adam Dunn hits home runs like Manny, or Barry, or whatever, but he doesn't get paid like them. Why???

Because he is not as good as them.

Are you suggesting it's because everyone, all GM's, managers, scouts, in baseball are idiots??? Or is it maybe, just maybe, because those professionals that play the game see that his lack of consistant contact keeps him from helping the team win as much as most other 40HR a year guys do? I think that's where the criticism comes from. He's (just like Dave Kingman years ago) could hit 30-40 every year, but because they lacked something else they weren't as adept at helping their teams win as other 30-40 home run guys are.

Not being as good as two of the best hitters to ever walk the earth doesn't mean that he doesn't help his team win.

Anyway, what in the world does

Ann#1: Well Dave Kingman could steal you some bases. He was a heckuva athlete.

that mean? Dave Kingman stole 85 bases in his career, at a 63% clip. Per 162 games, he averaged 7 steals and 4 CS. For Dunn's career, he averages 8 steals and 3 CS, having stole 59 bases at a 76% clip.

Adam Dunn is better at stealing bases than Dave Kingman.

Fail.

[OldFatGuy]

Because he is not as good as them.


Not being as good as two of the best hitters to ever walk the earth doesn't mean that he doesn't help his team win.

Well, yeah, I guess that was what my point was.

I think most 30-40 home run guys help their teams win more than Adam Dunn does (and Dave Kingman did). That's all I think the point is.

I think it's fair. Adam Dunn can hit the ball as far or further than anyone playing the game. And he's got a GREAT eye for the strike zone, as proven by his walks, but he strikes out almost 200 times a year.

If he could just cut that in half, I'd bet his BA would top .260 consistently and his RBI totals would go up by perhaps 20 per year. And that would be helping your team win MORE, and I think that's where the criticism comes from.

Manny has played 16 seasons and Dunn 8, exactly twice as many. And in terms of home runs, Manny has about twice as many. But in terms of RBI's he has nearly three times as many, and in another telling stat, he has more than FOUR TIMES as many sacrifice flies, one of those times when one kind of an out is much better than another.

I'm not suggesting Dunn needs to be as good as Manny to get any credit. I'm suggesting he's another one of those all power/no contact guys that doesn't help their teams win as much as a power/good contact guy does. That's a fair criticism, IMO.

Like I said, I think folks are taking it literally, where it's meant more in a comparitive way.

But either way, I'll drop out now. Didn't mean to get under folks skins.

Sorry.

[HoustonGM]

I think most 30-40 home run guys help their teams win more than Adam Dunn does (and Dave Kingman did). That's all I think the point is.

So, what exactly is the point of saying "Adam Dunn is worse than Manny Ramirez"? How many people say "Manny Ramirez doesn't help his team win" because he's worse than Albert Pujols? These people actually do believe that Adam Dunn is a terrible player.

Dunn is also much better than Kingman ever was.

I think it's fair. Adam Dunn can hit the ball as far or further than anyone playing the game. And he's got a GREAT eye for the strike zone, as proven by his walks, but he strikes out almost 200 times a year.

The strike outs are partially a function of his eye, because he works deep counts.

If he could just cut that in half, I'd bet his BA would top .260 consistently and his RBI totals would go up by perhaps 20 per year. And that would be helping your team win MORE, and I think that's where the criticism comes from.

It doesn't make it any less silly. Dunn strikes out a lot. It doesn't make him any worse a player than someone who barely strikes out. Strike outs are not any worse than the average non-strikeout out.

Manny has played 16 seasons and Dunn 8, exactly twice as many. And in terms of home runs, Manny has about twice as many. But in terms of RBI's he has nearly three times as many, and in another telling stat, he has more than FOUR TIMES as many sacrifice flies, one of those times when one kind of an out is much better than another.

Manny is a better hitter, so yes, he drives in more runs. Also, this is partially because Manny has played on MUCH MUCH MUCH better teams.

I'm not suggesting Dunn needs to be as good as Manny to get any credit. I'm suggesting he's another one of those all power/no contact guys that doesn't help their teams win as much as a power/good contact guy does. That's a fair criticism, IMO.

But, really, what's the point in saying that? Everybody knows that Adam Dunn is worse than the Hall of Fame caliber hitters he plays with, but that's not a reason to make him out like he's terrible.

Like I said, I think folks are taking it literally, where it's meant more in a comparitive way.

I think you give the guys that spew this crap too much credit. These people, overall, really think that Adam Dunn is a bad player. They don't think he's "worse than Manny Ramirez." They think he's a detriment to the team. That's why they phrase their statements in such a way to imply exactly that. They focus entirely on his weaknesses and completely ignore what he does well.