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Thread: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

  1. #31
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    Re: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe12Pack View Post

    Come on now... what do YOU say if your NEW coach walks in out of nowhere and suddenly wants to trade you? I give the guy the benefit of the doubt.
    And none of that explains his ridiculous behavior this offseason...he asks for a trade, then gets pissed off when the team looks to trade him. Shows all the emotional maturity of a 5 year old who REALLY wants that toy that mommy won't buy him (Fine! You won't stroke my ego? I'll stay away from the team until my face turns blue!), then the owner says "Fine, we're done with you." at which point he comes back and starts making these stupid claims of never wanting to be traded, ever? I'm sorry, this idiot is an immature, whiny little entitled douche that I hope is sacked out of the league in 2 years.

  2. #32
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    Re: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Blast View Post
    And none of that explains his ridiculous behavior this offseason...he asks for a trade, then gets pissed off when the team looks to trade him. Shows all the emotional maturity of a 5 year old who REALLY wants that toy that mommy won't buy him (Fine! You won't stroke my ego? I'll stay away from the team until my face turns blue!), then the owner says "Fine, we're done with you." at which point he comes back and starts making these stupid claims of never wanting to be traded, ever? I'm sorry, this idiot is an immature, whiny little entitled douche that I hope is sacked out of the league in 2 years.
    I don't follow the game like others here, but I got the same "what an immature way to act" when I followed this too.

    And it's got me wondering. Can an NFL quarterback really be that good if he's that immature??? Doesn't the position require, I dunno, leadership and respect??

  3. #33
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    Re: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

    A few points:

    1) Showing optimism about a trade my team made, especially one which so obviously improves the offense, doesn't automatically qualify as "homer talk." I'm more than willing to admit when I am being a homer, this time isn't one of them.

    2) The Chicago offensive line was average last season, and can only improve this season. The tackle play will be significantly better with Tait retiring, with the average St. Clair leaving, and bringing in the experienced vet in Pace, depth in Shaffer, and with Williams playing his first full season.

    3) The Chicago WR corps cannot be any worse than last season. I sense that they will sign one of the veterans available (they pretty much have to), and will spend their 2nd pick on someone else to add to this group.

    4) The Bronco offense is not that much better than the Bear offense, and the only position in which they have a clear advantage is WR1 with Marshall. The Bears have better tight ends, probably a slightly better running game, and HAD a worse line, overall, in '08. I don't see much difference between the two lines in '09. Cutler will easily surpass 3500 yards, and as I mentioned before, he is much better suited for the Turner offense and for Hester. His ability to hit Hester deep, alone (where Orton couldn't), will easily supply an additional 25 yards per game, assuming he can hit him for 50 yards every other game - not that much to ask.

    5) Trades are not a zero sum game. There is no "winner" or "loser." Often, one team does better on account of the trade, but often, both teams "lose" or "win" with it. The Broncos did very, very well, and this trade makes sense for them. But this trade makes sense for the Bears as well. I'd rather the Bears gain a proven commodity with their first round picks instead of wasting them on junk. The last successful first round pick the Bears made was Brian Urlacher. This also saves the Bears a lot of money. They got a GREAT deal on Cutler, where Orton may very well have walked after next season, AND... they don't have to spend money on first round picks for the next two seasons. A few blessings in disguise...

    6) I see the Bears as a 9 or 10 win team as things currently stand. This is not delusional, as they won 9 last season (and could have easily won 11), and can only be better in '09. I also believe this number stands to improve. The Bears are one signing and one sensible 2nd round pick away from being an 11 win team, and a neck-and-neck favorite for the division along with the Vikings.

    7) We have no way of knowing what kind of "leader" Cutler is, or what kind of maturity he has. The experts don't even really know. I think it becomes a moot point until it shows itself on the field in a tangible way. I do believe the Bears lost some leadership by letting go of Orton, but the offense was poor, the offense is in transition, and the offense needs to be turned around. What value does a leader of a bunch of junk have?

  4. #34
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    Re: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

    Broncos have the advantage on O-line, TE & WR (they're #2, Royal, would be the Bears' #1)

    Both Denver TE's rated higher last year, statistically, than Chicago's, Denver's top 2 WRs rated higher statistically than any Chicago receiver & Denver's O-line was unquestionably better last year

    Again, haven't paid much attention to any Denver line changes, but unless they lost at least 1 starter, I'd be suprised if they were worse than Chicago's this year.

    And in an attempt to avert any confusion, I'm measuring TE & WR success by means of DYAR & DVOA (metrics which take into account a player's opposition and game situation, comparing them to replacement level and average position players at that position).

    As for winners & losers, you're right, not all trades are zero sum. The Champ Bailey/Clinton Portis trade was pretty even in my eyes. However, you can't tell me that the Chargers didn't win in their trade with the Giants (Rivers, Merriman and Kaeding for Eli) or the infamous Herschel Walker trade just to name a few


    Not trying to troll or be an ass, just don't think your hopes should be as high as they seem to be is all (feel free to bring this back up if the Bears make a playoff run or anything down the road)

  5. #35
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    Re: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

    Quote Originally Posted by etothep View Post
    Broncos have the advantage on O-line, TE & WR (they're #2, Royal, would be the Bears' #1)

    Both Denver TE's rated higher last year, statistically, than Chicago's, Denver's top 2 WRs rated higher statistically than any Chicago receiver & Denver's O-line was unquestionably better last year

    Again, haven't paid much attention to any Denver line changes, but unless they lost at least 1 starter, I'd be suprised if they were worse than Chicago's this year.

    And in an attempt to avert any confusion, I'm measuring TE & WR success by means of DYAR & DVOA (metrics which take into account a player's opposition and game situation, comparing them to replacement level and average position players at that position).

    As for winners & losers, you're right, not all trades are zero sum. The Champ Bailey/Clinton Portis trade was pretty even in my eyes. However, you can't tell me that the Chargers didn't win in their trade with the Giants (Rivers, Merriman and Kaeding for Eli) or the infamous Herschel Walker trade just to name a few


    Not trying to troll or be an ass, just don't think your hopes should be as high as they seem to be is all (feel free to bring this back up if the Bears make a playoff run or anything down the road)
    I'm not really a football metrics guy, because too much of football performance is dependent upon other players. I'd be willing to put up $20 that Chicago's TEs perform better in '09 according to any measurement, than Denver's did in '08.

    Royal may be talented, but we'll have to see how he does with Orton throwing the ball to him, and we'll have to see how Hester does with Cutler. Once again, I'm thinking there's a complete reversal, and that Hester outperforms Royal.

    I don't think I have very high hopes... it's not like I'm talking Super Bowl. Hell, I'm not even favoring the Bears for the division. I think they're in a dead heat with Minnesota right now. Like I said, I'm thinking 9 or 10 wins... I am barely pegging them to be above .500.

    They won 9 games last season... How is predicting the same, or 1 win better, with the current roster, having high hopes!??

    I know you're not trying to troll or be an ass. I enjoy discussion like this.

  6. #36
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    Re: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe12Pack View Post
    I'm not really a football metrics guy, because too much of football performance is dependent upon other players. I'd be willing to put up $20 that Chicago's TEs perform better in '09 according to any measurement, than Denver's did in '08.

    Royal may be talented, but we'll have to see how he does with Orton throwing the ball to him, and we'll have to see how Hester does with Cutler. Once again, I'm thinking there's a complete reversal, and that Hester outperforms Royal.

    I don't think I have very high hopes... it's not like I'm talking Super Bowl. Hell, I'm not even favoring the Bears for the division. I think they're in a dead heat with Minnesota right now. Like I said, I'm thinking 9 or 10 wins... I am barely pegging them to be above .500.

    They won 9 games last season... How is predicting the same, or 1 win better, with the current roster, having high hopes!??
    I'm still referring to your Pace hopes. Obviously I think you guys upgraded at QB

  7. #37
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    Re: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

    Quote Originally Posted by etothep View Post
    I'm still referring to your Pace hopes. Obviously I think you guys upgraded at QB
    It's less about Pace and more about Pace + Shaffer + Williams.

    Pace/Williams/Shaffer > St. Clair/Tait... by a wide margin.

    If it were only Pace, I wouldn't be as confident. But Pace can teach Williams a thing or two, and Shaffer adds depth (especially important in the event that Pace goes down).

    I like the Pace signing a lot, because it has potential to be a huge win for the Bears, without a great deal of risk. I also think Cutler takes some pressure off the line, because he's more adept at moving around in the pocket, and because he opens up some of the Bear passing options.

    It'll be interesting to see what happens from here on out. The Bears do have the potential to become a good-to-great offense, with the right (minor) moves.

    All in all, I'd conclude this whole conversation by saying that I'm really happy the Bears finally have a QB that has high level, proven physical talent. You have no idea how this feels for us Bear fans...

  8. #38
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    Re: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

    The Broncos offense was a top five offense in 2008. Without Cutler they still have the potential to be a better half offense with the "amoeba" offense that McDaniels has. Their offensive line was considerably better in 2008 and didn't lose a starter. Jay Cutler was sacked 11 times. Kyle Orton? 27. The Broncos offensive line is a considerable amount better then the Bears. At least in terms of pass protection...which I assume is the most relevant in a discussion on quarterbacks.


    Cutler without a talent like Brandon Marshall is something to be wary of. He went to Marshall a consistent amount of times in the 2008 season. Enough to be wary of what it would be like without great play from his wideouts. Eddie Royal will obviously see a drop in production because not only will the offense NOT be run and gun like it was in 2008 but he won't have the deep ball threat QB like he had. But no doubt if he were on the Bears he would be the #1 WR.

  9. #39
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    Re: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

    Royal was a short route receiver anyway, so losing a guy with a ballistic missile launcher for an arm doesn't really hurt him that badly. Hester could be a REALLY good big play guy this year with Cutler, I agree with that, but I think he'll also probably drop the ball 25 times. And the question is, do the Bears have the pass protection to run a bunch of long routes? Shaffer and Pace REALLY beef up the run blocking, but Shaffer was never much of a pass protector and Pace's injuries have all been of the variety that tends to affect quickness (achilles, knee ligaments).

    Chicago gets a great bargain at QB THIS year...however, if Cutler puts up good numbers I find it very hard to believe he'll be content playing for the equivalent of peanuts (and in that I wouldn't really be able to argue with him). Denver gets a guy who can run that ball control attack they plan to run, and they load up on draft picks to use on defense (which they desperately need). THAT is actually where I think the Bears will miss those picks more. Chicago's defensive line is actually pretty bad at generating a pass rush and their secondary flat out stank last season. Figuring they likely use their one first day pick on a receiver, though...that doesn't leave much to help that D.

  10. #40
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    Re: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

    Quote Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989 View Post
    Jay Cutler was sacked 11 times. Kyle Orton? 27.
    11 is a freak number. 27 is actually pretty damn good. How much of the 16 sack differential comes from the quality of opponents' defense, and from the ability of the QB to evade sacks? Cutler is easily among the best QBs in the entire NFL - possibly THE best (in terms of pocket passers) - at evading sacks. He's almost Youngesque in his ability to move in the pocket. Orton is slow and not very athletic.

    Cutler without a talent like Brandon Marshall is something to be wary of.
    Not "wary of" in the way that Orton or Grossman are. Cutler now has even more options, actually, in dump off routes in Olsen, Clark, and most importantly, Forte, than he had in Denver.

    He went to Marshall a consistent amount of times in the 2008 season.
    Marshall is superior to any option the Bears have, of course, and again, Cutler now has more check down options. Like I said many times already, Turner + Cutler is a great combo. Turner runs the type of offense that makes sense for a guy like Cutler... get it off deep to Hester or Olsen, and if that isn't there, dump it off quickly to Forte or Clark.

    Eddie Royal will obviously see a drop in production because not only will the offense NOT be run and gun like it was in 2008 but he won't have the deep ball threat QB like he had.
    While I agree Royal's production will decline, I think Orton could actually be a great fit for the Bronco offense. Don't be surprised if Orton approaches 4000 passing yards in Denver. He is well experienced in the shotgun, as it's all he ran at Purdue, and it's where he excelled in the passing game in Chicago.

    But no doubt if he were on the Bears he would be the #1 WR.
    I think it depends largely on the QB. I think Royal and Hester would be 1A and 1B in the same scheme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Blast View Post
    Hester could be a REALLY good big play guy this year with Cutler, I agree with that, but I think he'll also probably drop the ball 25 times.
    That's an exaggeration... Hester actually has surprisingly great hands for a guy who is a converted CB/PR. Yes, he drops his fair share of balls, but he won't drop 25 passes this season, and probably won't even drop 15. And yeah, he can be a very, very good big play WR with a QB that actually has an accurate deep arm. In fact, I could see Hester developing into one of the all time great deep threat WRs with the proper QB, based on his ability to outrun any CB in the league.

    And the question is, do the Bears have the pass protection to run a bunch of long routes? Shaffer and Pace REALLY beef up the run blocking, but Shaffer was never much of a pass protector and Pace's injuries have all been of the variety that tends to affect quickness (achilles, knee ligaments).
    Last season, the Bear OL overachieved in terms of providing pass protection, so it's conceivable the new line could provide Cutler enough time to hit Hester. Also, Turner runs a great deal of deep routes on a per game basis, so there's plenty of chances to strike deep.

    The key here is Williams, who is projected as a great blocker in both the run and the pass. Huge question mark, since he is coming off and injury, and has practically no NFL experience. Still, I like the depth, and it's an improvement over St. Clair and Tait.

    Chicago gets a great bargain at QB THIS year...however, if Cutler puts up good numbers I find it very hard to believe he'll be content playing for the equivalent of peanuts (and in that I wouldn't really be able to argue with him). Denver gets a guy who can run that ball control attack they plan to run, and they load up on draft picks to use on defense (which they desperately need). THAT is actually where I think the Bears will miss those picks more. Chicago's defensive line is actually pretty bad at generating a pass rush and their secondary flat out stank last season. Figuring they likely use their one first day pick on a receiver, though...that doesn't leave much to help that D.
    As they are a young team, and ignoring the fact that Angelo is a horrible high round drafter, I don't think the Bears will miss those picks until at least 3 years from now.

    I both agree and disagree with you about the Chicago DL... they're bad at some things, great at other things. The interior is very strong, and the line as a whole is spectacular against the run. Alex Brown is one of the most underrated defenders in the NFL, and is definitely a top-5 DE against the run. The problem is their inability to rush the passer. But they have guys who have been able, historically, to rush the QB, in Ogunleye and Anderson. That said, I think their second biggest weakness, as a team, is their inability to put pressure on the QB consistently.

    I see the Bear secondary as the team's biggest weakness, but it's another area where they have loads of talent, albeit underachieving talent.

    The Bear defense is better than it showed it was last season, but nowhere near the squad it was a few years ago. Still, I think they've got a defense that is somewhere around 10th best in the NFL, talent-wise, and if they can stay healthy, combined with an improved offense, the Bears are certainly in contention for an NFC title for 2009.

    Also, you can't deny this team's uncanny ability to win/steal games by sheer luck and will. Being a Bear fan is heartbreaking, but we have a rollercoaster ride that no other fan will ever experience... for 6 or 7 years running, this team has played 90% of its game tight, thrilling, and insane, from start to finish, winning many games it shouldn't have, and losing many games that it should have won. The entire team is freakish in that respect. As long as the Bears have strong talent and a decent team all around, they will compete.

  11. #41
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    Re: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe12Pack View Post
    11 is a freak number. 27 is actually pretty damn good. How much of the 16 sack differential comes from the quality of opponents' defense, and from the ability of the QB to evade sacks?
    Adjusted Sack Rate - gives sacks per pass attempt adjusted for opponent, down, and distance

    Chicago's rank last year - 11th
    Denver's - 4th

    I think this is the best metric in measuring a line's ability to pass block

  12. #42
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    Re: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

    from a denver fan:
    As a lifelong Bronco fan, I come to share this venting and perspective.

    When McDaniels was hired, I was ****ing pissed off. I hate the Patriots to an unimaginable degree. Whenever people hear how much I hate the Patriots, they can instantly guess that I’m on the drunken downward spiral after breaking up with my girlfriend. No one sober or in a relationship can possibly summon that level of hatred for a sports team. I look like one of those guys screaming and grabbing at the coffin during a funeral riot for an Arab kid shot to death by Israelis. So you can imagine I was upset when they got Belichick’s former gopher to come in here and try to install the Patriot way. **** THAT. The best case scenario for this smug little **** is that we turn into the Patriots West??? Bloodless press coverage, joyless victories, dink and dunk ****ing ******** offense, deception, subterfuge, condescension, arrogance. Holy ****. I’d rather the Cos go 8-8 the rest of my life than win a Super Bowl the Patriots way. Not to mention that my ideal coaching hire, call me crazy, was a hard-nose, experienced ass-kicking defensive coach who could come in, install some discipline, turn around the defense, and not screw up the offense. Maybe a harder version of Tony Dungy. So they go bring in this little ****?? And he tries to trade my 25-yr old franchise quarterback. You got to be ****ing kidding me. Cutler is flawed for sure, but he also gives a **** and has all the ability to be a Super Bowl MVP someday. Mistake-prone? Forces things? Sure. But there’s a lot of ****ing pressure in knowing that you have to score on EVERY offensive possession because the defense just might give up 50 today. I think in those first few meetings, Cutler could sniff out McDaniels’ ******** immediately. And maybe Jay was a little hungover or tipsy, and not giving off the best impression himself. But then he got lied to, straight up. I would have bailed on this team too. ANYONE would have done the same thing. You want me to play for this chuckle****? No. ****ing. Way. Good luck. I’d pack my **** up and move to Detroit rather than play for some smirking weasel **** who wanted me to throw 5 yard outs all game all the while thinking that Matt Cassel could be doing it better.

    What this feels like exactly, is that your parents get divorced. You didn’t have the perfect home by any means, but you were pretty happy, and there was a chance each year would be better than the last. Your parents keep telling you they’d stay together, but then one day, out of nowhere, it’s over. You never even saw them fighting. Now, you got a bunch of brothers and a couple of them hated your dad, but everyone managed to get along. And even those guys who hated your dad, they’re not exactly happy. They really don’t know what to feel. It just all feels so wrong. So now they’re divorced, and your beloved grandfather, who’s never done anything but try to make this family happier, inexplicably hooks your mom up with some ******* of a guy who’s almost your age, saying she needs to get on with her life. And now this ******* is around the house all the time, ****ing your mom, loudly, slapping you on the back and calling you “chief” and **** like that, all with a big ****-eating grin on his face. And he starts talking about “our family” and “we” and this and that. And you’re thinking, “listen muther****er, you’re not IN this family.” So he starts changing the house around, and it’s okay at first. Then he starts messing with your mom, changing the way she dresses, walks and talks to make her more like his ex-wife. You know this guy’s ex-wife, and she is a known and notorious ****. So this is a pretty disturbing development. But then, without your permission, he tries to give away the family dog. Now, your dog ain’t perfect, and he ain’t pretty, but he rocks the **** at fetch and you love him. Now this douchebag wants to stroll in, give him away, and pick up some new dog, like a poodle or some gay **** that you definitely DO NOT WANT. Then you get all pissed off when you find out, and he tries to play it off like it didn’t happen and lies about it. But you know, you definitely know, this shady ***** is up to something. So, he finally goes ahead and does it, and instead of a new gay poodle, you get a dog who looks kind of like your old dog, only he can’t play fetch for ****, pisses on the carpet all the time, and smells something awful. To make matters worse, half your brothers start acting like they actually like this new boyfriend, and start talking **** about your old dog and your dad. And new guy starts bringing his kids over to hang out, and all they do is talk about how awesome their dad is. All this ends up splitting your family in half, creating a rift that maybe can never be fixed.

    That’s what living in Bronco Land is like right now. 1000 comments a day on the Denver Post stories about this situation, half of them calling Cutler a crybaby and the other half calling McDaniels a douchebag. So, fully half the Broncos fans are going to be cheering this team to 0-16 out of spite, with the other half cheering the Bears to 0-16 out of spite, with only a scant few left to root for the Broncos to have any success.

    So now I grit my teeth whenever I see McD and try to smile and pretend like I don’t hate him. Because I can’t abandon this team, no matter how much I want to. But I’ve got to look at that **** on the sidelines every game, and enjoy watching my team turn into the ****ING Patriots, only without the success.

    And his press conference today, where he only referred to Cutler as “the player”? Oh, Josh, you smug dick you. I’m really going to enjoy this next season listening to more **** like that.

    I think if I could just punch him square in the face a couple of times, and yell at Bowlen for about 15 minutes, I could get back on the bandwagon for real. But without that, I’ll be struggling.

    And I am rooting for Cutler to do well in Chicago though. Why? Because **** Josh McDaniels, that’s why.

    There is a part of me that still believes this is some brilliant demonic plan cooked up by Belichick to destroy the Broncos, using his gopher underling. But, hey, maybe we’ll have a good year.

  13. #43
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    Re: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

    And thus, my embarrassment with being involved with this team is growing.

  14. #44
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    Re: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

    Something tells me Belichick would be plotting against San Diego and the Colts...Denver would be an afterthought.

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    Re: Jay Cutler traded to Bears

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Blast View Post
    Something tells me Belichick would be plotting against San Diego and the Colts...Denver would be an afterthought.
    haha, since when did common sense get in the way of conspiracy theories?

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