Ozzie Smith

[Jeffy25]

Best damn has zero true thought to any of their shows....I can't really stand to watch them that much, or even PTI. I just don't see it as true thought provoking answers or questions.

[Joe12Pack]

Yep.

But then he thought Omar Vizquel belongs...until it was pointed out that Vizquel sucked as a hitter.

I think Vizquel belongs. Kind of an Ozzie-lite... remarkable fielding (the best career fielder at SS that I can think of, outside of Ozzie, in my time), a billion gold gloves, very durable, did just enough as a hitter to be worth something on offense (considering his position), had considerable speed, and played more games at the position than anyone, ever.

[Jeffy25]

I think Vizquel belongs. Kind of an Ozzie-lite... remarkable fielding (the best career fielder at SS that I can think of, outside of Ozzie, in my time), a billion gold gloves, very durable, did just enough as a hitter to be worth something on offense (considering his position), had considerable speed, and played more games at the position than anyone, ever.

I think Omar deserves consideration, but I don't know if I would say he is hall worthy. I would say he is fringe at best....I could be proven wrong here.

[Joe12Pack]

I think Omar deserves consideration, but I don't know if I would say he is hall worthy. I would say he is fringe at best....I could be proven wrong here.

Definitely fringe... but I wouldn't consider Ozzie a fringe guy, and I think Vizquel benefits from Ozzie's presence in the Hall because similar arguments would be made for both.

I doubt Vizquel will actually make it in real life.

[Jeffy25]

What about Fryman?

[Joe12Pack]

What about Fryman?

Nah... totally different type of guy. Great defense, but mostly a 3B, so he's not really in the same conversation. His offense was not overly impressive for 3B, and his defense, while very good, was never HOF-worthy.

[Wassit3]

It doesn't take a group of sabermetric geniuses to know that Honus Wagner is the best shortstop ever to play, bar none. It takes a group of monkeys with half their normal brain function.

um Houston a group of monkeys with half their normal brain function FAR out classes the intelligence of the best damn crew...

[HoustonGM]

I think Vizquel belongs. Kind of an Ozzie-lite... remarkable fielding (the best career fielder at SS that I can think of, outside of Ozzie, in my time), a billion gold gloves, very durable, did just enough as a hitter to be worth something on offense (considering his position), had considerable speed, and played more games at the position than anyone, ever.

I don't think Vizquel is close. Ozzie was a MUCH better offensive player (and a better defensive player). Vizquel had some nice seasons and was a good player, but he never was close to being a great player. Ozzie had multiple seasons where he was (or rather, should have been) a legitimate MVP contender. I have Ozzie as the best NL shortstop from 1984-1989. I don't see any season where Vizquel was the best shortstop in his league. Shortstops as a whole were just much better in Vizquel's time. In 1998, for example, the average AL shortstop hit .274/.323/.407. In 1988, the average NL shortstop hit .246/.300/.337. Even without adjusting for position, though, Ozzie was a much better hitter.

Vizquel is much more like Rabbit Maranville than Ozzie Smith...and that's a guy generally regarding as among the weakest HoF selections.

[Jeffy25]

I don't think Vizquel is close. Ozzie was a MUCH better offensive player (and a better defensive player). Vizquel had some nice seasons and was a good player, but he never was close to being a great player. Ozzie had multiple seasons where he was (or rather, should have been) a legitimate MVP contender. I have Ozzie as the best NL shortstop from 1984-1989. I don't see any season where Vizquel was the best shortstop in his league. Shortstops as a whole were just much better in Vizquel's time. In 1998, for example, the average AL shortstop hit .274/.323/.407. In 1988, the average NL shortstop hit .246/.300/.337. Even without adjusting for position, though, Ozzie was a much better hitter.

Vizquel is much more like Rabbit Maranville than Ozzie Smith...and that's a guy generally regarding as among the weakest HoF selections.

98 AL Shortstops that were better: A-Rod, Jeter, Garciaparra, Tejada, even alex gonzalez (I believe) had good years

[Jeffy25]

I will always have a proverbial hard on for Ozzie, he is the reason I am a Cards fan. I played shortstop as a kid etc...I will always inflate his number in my mind and his ability. He is my guy

[ragecage]

He was the best defensive player I have ever seen play.

[HoustonGM]

98 AL Shortstops that were better: A-Rod, Jeter, Garciaparra, Tejada, even alex gonzalez (I believe) had good years

Nomar, A-Rod, and Jeter, yes. Tejada was just getting started and was pretty terrible that year. Alex Gonzalez was the worst shortstop in the AL that year (among full-timers).

[ragecage]

A-Rod doesnt even hold a candle to Eric Chavez as far as defensive 3rd baseman go. Just thought I would throw that in. It might be a little homerish for me to say so, but ive watched Chavie play for a long time and only Rolen was better. if not equal.

[HoustonGM]

Who talked about third base defense, or A-Rod as a third basemen?

[ragecage]

Who talked about third base defense, or A-Rod as a third basemen?

Sorry HGM, its just the jeger kickin in.