Illegal drugs and the game

[grasshopper]

This has been waying heavily on my mind since the Mitchell Report and the latest ARod thingy. At first I was saddened, but after reading a lot of history on the game I am not feeling too bad about it anymore.

Since the game became Apple Pie, all players did everything possible to gain an edge. Cobb sharpened his spikes and slid to destroy 2nd basemen knees. Super illegal in todays game. Pitchers in all eras up till the 90s spit on the ball, sandpapered, etc... Bats were corked, weighted, etc... I am positive that given the chance, many of the best would have pumped Human Growth, steroids, and others drugs to gain the edge.

In fact, players were pumping amphetemines since the 1950s. These were always illegal. To think that Brett and Rose and Reggie never pumped something into their bodies or did something illegal to gain an edge is becoming more unlikely every day. I believe I read somewhere that the Mick was getting so called Cortisone cocktails almost daily at the end, and it wasnt just cortisone. His knee was so bad he would have been out of baseball at 32 as a purest.

So now I ponder. The big ruination should have been McGwire vs. Sosa. We all knew it at the time yet it brought baseball back to prominence after another stupid strike. How could we not know they were both the juice was loose. For crips sake, when Mark M. had to retire because his upper body weight caused his foot arches to collapse. Yes, that is why he retired. We knew then and no one said anything.

So to todays game. I totally hear and understand what Roy Oswalt was saying how he was cheated blah blah blah. My problem is that did HGH or steroids really make a difference? ARod really got nothing out of it. His aberration steroid numbers were in Arlington where all HR numbers go up. Clemens still would have easily broken 300 cause I have never seen a guy work out and preserve his body like him. Barry Bonds would have broken 600 HRs easily without them, etc.

If you think about it, the actual amount of guys being considered for the HOF involved in the skank is actually quite small. The guys who really pumped were the nobodys and got nothing from them so have almost no effect on BB.

If you actually look at the numbers, it can almost be proven that HGH, steroids, amphetemines, and beer have actually had not alot of impact on the game. The only real cases were Barry Bonds and 73 where he pumped everything know to God and made his head big, Sosa from 30 to 60, and McGwire who apperently had been juicing since high school. These guys were the extreme. David Wells and intoxication on the mound should actually be a modern day HOF shoe in cause thats what they did old school.

In the long run, people like Barry Bonds are gonna pay the price. Worth millions and he cant even beat his wife because his bobble head keeps tipping him over.

[HoustonGM]

I'd quibble with some things, but I think I agree with your overall point...I think.

[grasshopper]

Houston, this is a tuff one isnt it? Where do we draw the line? How can you put an asterisk next to a name that did nothing illegal according to the Union. Until 2 years ago, the only illegal activity for baseball was gambling and thus Pete Rose.

[HoustonGM]

The records just can't be changed or anything, you're right.

And it's actually 5 years ago, by the way, minor correction. 2004.

Illegal drugs have been part of baseball forever. Players have been using the best available drugs in efforts to enhance their performance forever. It's nothing new. People just wish to live in a fantasy world where baseball players were pure celestial beacons of morality up until 1998 when the evil steroid users Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds corrupted the entirety of the sport. There's no room for the facts that players have been using drugs forever, and steroids since they were made available.

[grasshopper]

That is why I hate to hear about ARod. Now I suspect Jeter, Maddux, Pudge, Chipper, etc... Who knows? Who the hell knows if Oswalt is even telling the truth? Just 10% of baseball has ruined it all if you look at it this way. I suspect 20-30%, but just me.

But if Selig would be a man and promise a new baseball from here on, I have no problem with any of the guys getting into the HOF. Selig makes 18M a year and is probably the worst commish ever. Different era, different baseball.

[HoustonGM]

I don't think anything has been ruined, precisely because there was never anything to "ruin" in the first place...because none of this is anything new.

[ragecage]

Ok I get the fact everyone cheated, but what gets me is the brutally inflated numbers during the steroid era as compared to other eras. I know only a few players stand out, like Bonds, McGwire, heck even Gagne with his save streak, but still we knew what these players were before they got on the juice, and what they did after it was suspected they were on the juice. Their numbers were inflated dramatically because of it.

Even the best of the best prior to all this didnt put up the type of power numbers these guys did. Its a shame. But in the end, I really dont care much...all it is is a neverending argument.

[grasshopper]

Exactly. But I am an ESPN-head and to hear Goodell who is actually effective in the NFL took a paycut while Selig took a huge raise makes my skin crawl. Isnt Selig already super rich anyway?

The only way for baseball to make a statement is to say "from this day forward these offenses ban you from baseball". It took the White Sox throwing a whole series to do this earlier. Todays controversy is getting close. We need a new commish big time.

Oh and yeah, anything until they set a rule is perfectly legal and should not exclude HOF. Just like Wall Street and children, the average athlete will steal from the cookie jar till Mom says no.

[HoustonGM]

For every Bonds and McGwire that seemingly put up bigger numbers when they were allegedly juicing, there's 10 guys that show no effect. There's way too much noise in the data to conclude whether or not any players were helped by steroids, and by how much.

Even the best of the best prior to all this didnt put up the type of power numbers these guys did. Its a shame. But in the end, I really dont care much...all it is is a neverending argument.

This particular point can be ended with one simple realization - steroids didn't cause the high leaguewide HR numbers that we see now. Since the dawn of baseball, HR numbers have been on the rise.

HR/G numbers:

1990: 0.79
1991: 0.80
1992: 0.72
1993: 0.89
1994: 1.03
1995: 1.01
1996: 1.09
1997: 1.02
1998: 1.04

See how HR's skyrocketed from 1992 to 1993 and then again in 1994? If you think steroids caused the rise, than you have to think everybody around the league just decided to get on the **** at the same time, and you also have to think that the Tom House's and Dale Murphy's that claim steroids have been in baseball for some time prior to the 90's are liars. You'd have to believe that while in the 1970's entire football teams were juiced to the moon, nobody in baseball did the stuff. I don't know about you, but I find all that hard to believe. Steroids have been being used in baseball since they became available. They did not cause the increase in offense of the 1990's. The more plausible explanation is the ball.

It's not "a shame". It's BASEBALL. Even the best of the best of the early 1900's didn't put up the type of power numbers that the guys of the 1920's did. Is it "a shame" that the players from before 1920 couldn't hit 20 home runs in a season, and after that it became common? Is it "a shame" that today's pitchers can't complete every single game they start, while the pitchers from the 19th century and early 20th century could? Baseball changes. That's why records shouldn't be "hallowed" and are relatively meaningless. Everything in baseball needs to be taken in context.

[grasshopper]

Yup, yesterdays baseball were a wound ball of hide strips covered with leather that was hand stitched. This is what makes Babe Ruth, who I will say without any qualms, the best hitter ever. Try hitting a 75 mph (high velocity in the times of the softer ball) almost 450 feet (Almost like a heavy tennis ball). He did this over 600 times in the heat of battle. Besides him, their is no comparison of eras.

[gRYFYN1]

Houston, this is a tuff one isnt it? Where do we draw the line? How can you put an asterisk next to a name that did nothing illegal according to the Union. Until 2 years ago, the only illegal activity for baseball was gambling and thus Pete Rose.

Well actually in 1991 anabolic steroid were classifieds a controlled substance by the government. AT that time Commissioner Vincent sent a memo to all teams and players saying that, as such, Steroids were against the rules. Gramted, there was no testing or official punishments for it.

So not 2 not 5 but 18 years ago Players were informed that Steroids were against the rules to take.

[acetoolguy]

We can question the effects of 'roids i guess, but of the 4 players at the top of the game for the era, Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Maddux, 3 used. I find that compelling eveidence also.
In another post I said its left a stain on the game that cannot be removed, each of us will judge the players based on our values.

[OldFatGuy]

We can question the effects of 'roids i guess, but of the 4 players at the top of the game for the era, Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Maddux, 3 used. I find that compelling eveidence also.
In another post I said its left a stain on the game that cannot be removed, each of us will judge the players based on our values.

Those the only 4 at the top of their game?? No Randy Johnson? No Trevor Hoffman, who only saved more games than any other player? No Craig Biggio, who got over 3,000 hits?? No Tom Glavine who won 300 games??

And if you want to look at players at the top of their game, let's talk about Nolan Ryan, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Tom Seiver, Frank Robinson, Willie McCovey, etc. etc. How many of them used amphetamines? How much of their numbers are a result of not feeling "worn down" over a 162 game season??

Seems like selective memory to me.

[dickay]

Houston, this is a tuff one isnt it? Where do we draw the line? How can you put an asterisk next to a name that did nothing illegal according to the Union. Until 2 years ago, the only illegal activity for baseball was gambling and thus Pete Rose.

actually, from what I've read there have been rules prohibiting "illegal drug use" since the late 70's. Those would encompass steroids. I don't know why people keep saying it wasn't illegal?

And lastly, the effects of steroid use is wildly debateable. There are quite a few doctors who have studied them for years which I've quotes some sources in a recent thread that believe they can greatly improve a hitters performance if used correctly. There are also those that believe the end effect is marginal.

I have always agreed amphetimines are also illegal and should be treated similarly. The reason fans don't jump on its usage IMO are;

1. Less is known about it in general, the media doesn't hype it as much and many just don't realize its being used and/or what for.

2. Many I talk to feel that while amphetimines may allow a player to play at his true "peak" for much longer during a season, steroid use creates an "artificially enhanced peak" which would not be obtainable without it. Those people believe this enhanced peak is not true and jeopardizes the historical numbers provided throughout history. Rather or not you believe that is one thing.......but it is a valid opinion and highlights the differences between the true drugs fairly.

And if you want to look at players at the top of their game, let's talk about Nolan Ryan, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Tom Seiver, Frank Robinson, Willie McCovey, etc. etc. How many of them used amphetamines? How much of their numbers are a result of not feeling "worn down" over a 162 game season??

This is exactly what #2 I posted discusses. I believe many aren't as upset over amphetamine usage because they have been used for so long and it allows a player to play to their full potential. Roid use allows them to exceed their potential (possibly). Thats a valid reason for people to be upset over roid use moreso than amphetamine use if they subscribe to the effects of roid use being beneficial.

[reflections]

I think this is why I prefer the older era's of baseball.
For people/fans/sportswriters to really create this perception that Baseball is some pure bastion of all things, is a joke. They need to stop watching "Field of Dreams" and realize that throughout the history of baseball, there has been cheating. What's the saying "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying".
Baseball is not pure.
Anyone remember the Pittsburgh drug trials in the 80's.
How about the constant suspensions of players such as Steve Howe, who was allowed back in time and time again.
For anyone to say "this stains baseball", must forget that for the first half of the 20th century. Baseball wasn't home to all of the best baseball players, and there was no written rule. It was just the commishes unwritten rule.
Do we discount the pitching records from the deadball era? Then why would anyone discount the batting records from the steroid era?(Yes, face it. It was just another Era in baseball, also since both pitchers and batters were participants in taking PED's, that would seem to even it out)

Sorry for some soapbox. After watching Pride and Perservance last night, the fact that guys taking PED's being a stain on the game, just disgusts me. Just like the Hall of Fame voters and their reasoning of not voting in players. I know it's what the press does, and what people like to talk about. Especially now with forums and desperation of magazines and newspapers to break the "big story".
In my eyes baseball hasn't changed. The players have, for better or worse. I still love watching baseball, but I don't follow the current game as closely as I did in the 80's and early 90's (although the MLB network is changing that a bit). And to my own eyes, if anyone really feels as though Baseball has been stained or tarnished.....well I hope one day you open your eyes a bit more to see that baseball has never been a pure game, it has it's dark alleys and back room deals. But it's still baseball. 9 guys (ok 10. damn you DH). You pitch the ball. You hit the ball. You catch the ball. You throw the ball. (unless your Steve Sax or Chuck Knoblauch).

Ok. Proceed with the argument that baseball has been ruined.