A-Roids?

[dickay]

Some random thoughts as I haven't had time to read this full thread;

1. I'm very curious to know the FULL details about how this information was obtained. These were supposedly anonymous tests...at least that is what we were told. Was there any circumstances in which these could be released? Hard to say, we don't know the full information about how it was structured. If it was truly supposed to be completely anonymous and in writing that those taking them would never have their identity known...the I have issues with it. Also, who really released the information, and how was it released? Those are things I'd like to hear more on.

2. A thing or two about drug tests.....if I take one today and come back "non-negative" the doc then has to screen me to find out exactly what type of medicine / supplements i am taking that may have had an effect on the tests. For all we know, ARO(I)D could have been on Andro and that led to the "non-negative". Because these were taken "anonymously" I wonder if there was that Doctor / Patient interview after the "non-negative" test, and if there wasn't than IMO everyone of those tests are suspect and cannot be used to guarentee roids were used. Its highly likely, but not a guarentee.

3. I really have to laugh when people say "there is no evidence steroids help the baseball player". Why then do they take them??? I do believe that people like Balco who hire scientists and medical professionals have at least in their minds perfected PED "programs" to maximize their benefits for each individual, and judging by the success they've had (Marion Jones, Bonds to name just a couple) they UNQUESTIONABLY make a profound difference, at least IMO.

4. I do see a big difference between "cheating" in terms of scuffing a baseball, corking a bat, using vaseline, etc...and using PED's or gambling on baseball. Our legal system has different gravity of crimes, and I think its evident that baseball should to. "Cheating" is not the same across the board.

5. I've said this before....I am not against any "witch hunt" to totally expose all who have used PED's illegally for gain at the professional level (providing its done within the context of the law, this AROID situation is concerning). I say that because I believe it is becoming a serious problem at the semi-pro, collegiate, and high school levels, where they don't have these "scientists" designing special PED's and programs to ensure health. The use of it has to stop, however when society sees the great advantages it has brought many of these athletes, it unquestionably increases the unprofessional usage of these drugs.

6. Regarding Selig, the union, and other baseball owners and officials....while they were complicit I have yet to see where they fully realized the full extent of the problem prior to 2003 testing. Maybe they purposely didn't want to dive into and investigate it...i do believe that. But I can't hold them more accountable, or to the save extent as I do the players who did this on their own accord through trainers and other players.

[HoustonGM]

Sorry but if I am innocent of ANY wrongdoing in the matter, I'm screaming that out loud from the highest mountain.

I'm pretty sure that wouldn't help anything. As I said, any guy remotely linked to steroids is in a lose-lose situation. The best they can do is admit to it and get the media to stop focusing on them, a la Andy Pettitte and Jason Giambi. No matter their guilt or innocence, denying it will do nothing except get them branded with a "liar" label, and not saying anything will get them the McGwire treatment.

1. I'm very curious to know the FULL details about how this information was obtained. These were supposedly anonymous tests...at least that is what we were told. Was there any circumstances in which these could be released? Hard to say, we don't know the full information about how it was structured. If it was truly supposed to be completely anonymous and in writing that those taking them would never have their identity known...the I have issues with it. Also, who really released the information, and how was it released? Those are things I'd like to hear more on.

Yes, it was supposed to be anonymous. The agreement between the MLB and the MLBPA stipulated that, AND said that the samples were to be destroyed. And, of course, neither of those things happened. Their method of keeping it "anonymous" was to put a code on the samples, so that the people conducting the tests wouldn't know who it belonged, and then a master list connecting the codes to names was kept in a separate state. The government, as part of its BALCO investigation, had a warrant to look at the results for players connected to the BALCO investigation. For whatever reason, they ended up taking the whole list. And now, somebody leaked one name off that list, and being that it was a sealed court document, that person should be prosecuted, but probably won't be since we all know taking steroids is way worse than trashing civil rights.

2. A thing or two about drug tests.....if I take one today and come back "non-negative" the doc then has to screen me to find out exactly what type of medicine / supplements i am taking that may have had an effect on the tests. For all we know, ARO(I)D could have been on Andro and that led to the "non-negative". Because these were taken "anonymously" I wonder if there was that Doctor / Patient interview after the "non-negative" test, and if there wasn't than IMO everyone of those tests are suspect and cannot be used to guarentee roids were used. Its highly likely, but not a guarentee.

Yes. Very, very true. People are already jumping all over A-Rod and numerous articles are being penned claiming that he won't get their HoF vote, etc. but the full details of this aren't close to being known. All we know is that according to four sources, Alex Rodriguez's name is on a list of 104 positive tests, and he tested positive for a steroid and testosterone. We don't even know for sure if that IS true, considering there's been more than one example in the past of a leak related to the steroid issue being wrong. Remember that pre-Mitchell Report leak claiming that Albert Pujols was named in it? Until we know more than the tiny sliver of crap we know now, we really shouldn't be passing judgment on the guy. That's too much to ask though.

3. I really have to laugh when people say "there is no evidence steroids help the baseball player". Why then do they take them??? I do believe that people like Balco who hire scientists and medical professionals have at least in their minds perfected PED "programs" to maximize their benefits for each individual, and judging by the success they've had (Marion Jones, Bonds to name just a couple) they UNQUESTIONABLY make a profound difference, at least IMO.

There is no evidence of how steroids help a baseball player. You can't point to Barry Bonds and then claim that as evidence, because if that is the standard of proof, I could point to the hundreds of nobodies that did steroids.

4. I do see a big difference between "cheating" in terms of scuffing a baseball, corking a bat, using vaseline, etc...and using PED's or gambling on baseball. Our legal system has different gravity of crimes, and I think its evident that baseball should to. "Cheating" is not the same across the board.

What makes steroids different from other PED's, then, like amphetamines?

5. I've said this before....I am not against any "witch hunt" to totally expose all who have used PED's illegally for gain at the professional level (providing its done within the context of the law, this AROID situation is concerning). I say that because I believe it is becoming a serious problem at the semi-pro, collegiate, and high school levels, where they don't have these "scientists" designing special PED's and programs to ensure health. The use of it has to stop, however when society sees the great advantages it has brought many of these athletes, it unquestionably increases the unprofessional usage of these drugs.

Doesn't that last sentence contradict the rest of the paragraph? If society seeing the success that athletes have had while using the stuff increases the use of the drugs among non-professionals, wouldn't conducting a witch hunt to expose as many of those players as possible therefore serve to increase non-professional drug use?

I'm NOT against having rules and testing in place to prevent and punish PED use from here on out. That's different, though, from going back in time and trying to find out who did what when, especially considering it is 100% impossible to ever do that, because steroid use in baseball has been going on since at least the early 1970's, and PED experimentation and use has been going on since the 19th century. Instead of focusing on the past, we should be focusing on eliminating the stuff from the game now and in the future.

6. Regarding Selig, the union, and other baseball owners and officials....while they were complicit I have yet to see where they fully realized the full extent of the problem prior to 2003 testing. Maybe they purposely didn't want to dive into and investigate it...i do believe that. But I can't hold them more accountable, or to the save extent as I do the players who did this on their own accord through trainers and other players.

Considering there were murmurs of steroid use in the press in the mid-1990's, I think they absolutely turned a blind eye to the issue. How naive could they have been to not realize what was going on? They had NO formal rules about it.

[RedsoxRockies]

I sense another Houston-Dickay war... take cover!

[HoustonGM]

I sense another Houston-Dickay war... take cover!

Um, you realize basically half my post was agreeing with things he said, right? Stop making these unnecessary comments that serve NO purpose whatsoever except to incite argument. Please.

[RedsoxRockies]

Um, you realize basically half my post was agreeing with things he said, right? Stop making these unnecessary comments that serve NO purpose whatsoever except to incite argument. Please.

I am only doing what you do to me all the time.....

[HoustonGM]

I am only doing what you do to me all the time.....

No, you're not.

[RedsoxRockies]

No, you're not.

Every time Mets and I post in the same thread, you post something about bickering or whatever, even if there is no argument.....

[dickay]

There is no evidence of how steroids help a baseball player. You can't point to Barry Bonds and then claim that as evidence, because if that is the standard of proof, I could point to the hundreds of nobodies that did steroids.

The evidence for me is the fact of how many people are taking it. It obviously has some effect...and I'm not saying it turns you into the incredible hulk or superman, but across all sports, olympics, etc...its been widely used to get an extra edge.

What makes steroids different from other PED's, then, like amphetamines?

I never said it was. Amphetamines should be treated in the same way as roids IMO. Much of the reason I bleieve Roids, even HGH is taken is to endure the rigors of the season, be able to continually train as these drugs apparently if used in the right manner rejuvenate the mucsles quicker. Amphetamines pretty much the same...it helps them endure the rigors of the season. All of these, while possibly healthy if taken in the correct dose under medical supervison (i say possibly as the medical community is still split on it), are also dangerous if not taken properly. Their usage gives them an unfair advantage over those in the sport that do not use them (as they are illegal) and their success does in fact influence others, including youth, to try them.

Doesn't that last sentence contradict the rest of the paragraph? If society seeing the success that athletes have had while using the stuff increases the use of the drugs among non-professionals, wouldn't conducting a witch hunt to expose as many of those players as possible therefore serve to increase non-professional drug use?

I'm NOT against having rules and testing in place to prevent and punish PED use from here on out. That's different, though, from going back in time and trying to find out who did what when, especially considering it is 100% impossible to ever do that, because steroid use in baseball has been going on since at least the early 1970's, and PED experimentation and use has been going on since the 19th century. Instead of focusing on the past, we should be focusing on eliminating the stuff from the game now and in the future.

I don't beleive i've contracdicted anything. Exposing these athletes that have used, will deter future use as will additional rules and testing. Both can be done concurrently. "Witch hunt" is probably the wrong terminology....i think the Mitchell report was their investigation (a poor one, but hey its MLB)and now the page is turned. However if additional information does surface (such as these player names) and can legally be distributed then they should be.

Considering there were murmurs of steroid use in the press in the mid-1990's, I think they absolutely turned a blind eye to the issue. How naive could they have been to not realize what was going on? They had NO formal rules about it.

Many parents think they're kids are "using" drugs and are (1) afraid to confront them, (2) believe their kids can take it in moderation and not hurt themselves, (3) believe their kids are only experimenting and it'll end soon. They may never realize the full extent of their kids problem until its too late. I DO in those circumstances blame the parents as were talking children. Baseball has grown men....and while I do blame the owners, media, selig and everyone for being complicit, in no way should they burden more of or even close to the same blame IMO as the players.

[HoustonGM]

The evidence for me is the fact of how many people are taking it. It obviously has some effect...and I'm not saying it turns you into the incredible hulk or superman, but across all sports, olympics, etc...its been widely used to get an extra edge.

You probably didn't see this since you haven't read the whole thread, but this is a quote I posted earlier from Baseball Think Factory:

Willingness to use a substance does not validate that it's performance-enhancing. This is like saying that since so many people willingly smoke cigarettes in 2009, there's no way it could be dangerous to one's health.

I never said it was. Amphetamines should be treated in the same way as roids IMO. Much of the reason I bleieve Roids, even HGH is taken is to endure the rigors of the season, be able to continually train as these drugs apparently if used in the right manner rejuvenate the mucsles quicker. Amphetamines pretty much the same...it helps them endure the rigors of the season. All of these, while possibly healthy if taken in the correct dose under medical supervison (i say possibly as the medical community is still split on it), are also dangerous if not taken properly. Their usage gives them an unfair advantage over those in the sport that do not use them (as they are illegal) and their success does in fact influence others, including youth, to try them.

Just curious because I forget, what's your stance on these players and the Hall of Fame? McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, etc.

I don't beleive i've contracdicted anything. Exposing these athletes that have used, will deter future use as will additional rules and testing.

Well, I just see a contradiction in that if you think showing people the players that succeeded with the stuff is detrimental to society (ie. causes people to use it), than exposing those in the past isn't a good plan of action.

Baseball has grown men....and while I do blame the owners, media, selig and everyone for being complicit, in no way should they burden more of or even close to the same blame IMO as the players.

I disagree, but we'll leave it at that. However, do you not see the blatant hypocrisy on the part of the media, owners, and Commissioner? The media, especially?

[Pavelb1]

Considering there were murmurs of steroid use in the press in the mid-1990's, I think they absolutely turned a blind eye to the issue. How naive could they have been to not realize what was going on? They had NO formal rules about it.

I'd like to see Arod say: "I'm sorry i lied on 60 minutes about it, I'm sorry if I've hurt or disappointed anyone, BUT everyone was doing them, they wern't banned when I did them *, and If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't change a thing. End of story".

[RedsoxRockies]

I'd like to see Arod say: "I'm sorry i lied on 60 minutes about it, I'm sorry if I've hurt or disappointed anyone, BUT everyone was doing them, they wern't banned when I did them *, and If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't change a thing. End of story".

He could go the Bonds route and deny everything. Look where that got Barry

[HoustonGM]

I'd like to see Arod say: "I'm sorry i lied on 60 minutes about it, I'm sorry if I've hurt or disappointed anyone, BUT everyone was doing them, they wern't banned when I did them *, and If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't change a thing. End of story".

Me too. I really would just like one player to come out and just say straight up "Yes. I did them. Many players did. Everybody knew about it. The media turned a blind eye to it for the longest time. Yes, it was a mistake, a black mark on the history of the game, but it's nothing out of the ordinary. It's far from the worst thing ever committed by baseball. Just like all those past transgressions, it's time to accept this era for what it was and move on."

[Slingshot]

Me too. I really would just like one player to come out and just say straight up "Yes. I did them. Many players did. Everybody knew about it. The media turned a blind eye to it for the longest time. Yes, it was a mistake, a black mark on the history of the game, but it's nothing out of the ordinary. It's far from the worst thing ever committed by baseball. Just like all those past transgressions, it's time to accept this era for what it was and move on."

So the fact that a lot of players used them makes it less wrong? If everyone jumped off a bridge, would you do it too? (old one, I know)

[HoustonGM]

So the fact that a lot of players used them makes it less wrong? If everyone jumped off a bridge, would you do it too? (old one, I know)

Clearly not what I said.

[Slingshot]

Clearly not what I said.

You said it was not out of the ordinary, that it wasn't the worst thing committed by baseball and that we should just accept that era for what it was. If everyone cheating doesn't qualify as one of the worst things in baseball history, I don't know what is.