A-Roids?

[KowboyKoop]

I can never figure out the reaction to players associated to steroids. If they admit to it, vaguely or otherwise, they get this reaction. If they don't say anything, they get treated as if they were guilty. If they deny it, they get called liars.

I'm not really sure what you are saying to me here. I don't know if you are agreeing with me or are accusing me of reacting too strongly against A-Rod.

All I am saying is that IF A-Rod knew he didn't use steroids, he should issue a short statement of "I didn't take steroids" and leave it at that. I don't think A-Rod is a horrible person if he did it and yes, people react way too strongly at the first bit of evidence (whether credible or not) and completely trash a player no matter what...but if he didn't do it, he should say he didn't do it. If someone accuses me of a crime or something this severe that I know I didn't do, I'd deny it. He should too...and if he does deny it and then it gets proven that he did use them, he should be called a liar.

By not denying it, it's telling me he is probably guilty. I am not saying he should be suspended or that he shouldn't make the HOF or that he isn't a great player now, but it's disappointing that he made that mistake. That's all I think about it. I'm ready to move on.

It is BS that supposed anonymous tests are being linked..but that's just the world we live in. It is unfair to do that..but it's also unfair to all those who didn't use steroids that they have been cheated to some degree by those who did use steroids. It's an unfortunate and unfair situation in many, many aspects. Owners, players, media, and audience.

[HoustonGM]

I agree with you houston....you have said everything perfectly

I've gotta give some of the credit to the random folks at Baseball Think Factory that I've quoted.

[HoustonGM]

I'm not really sure what you are saying to me here. I don't know if you are agreeing with me or are accusing me of reacting too strongly against A-Rod.

Sorry for not being clear. I wasn't responding directly to you, but rather your statement just made me think of what I posted - accused players are in a no-win situation.

[KowboyKoop]

Sorry for not being clear. I wasn't responding directly to you, but rather your statement just made me think of what I posted - accused players are in a no-win situation.

Definitely agree with that. The best an innocent player can do is deny it and hope to be thoroughly proven innocent. The media is one of the biggest culprits in this..just looking to break a newstory and ruin anyone's name that gets in their way.




I don't think the use of steroids should be a big issue anymore in the past...but it damn sure needs to be eliminated as thoroughly as possible so that HS kids don't get too caught up in steroid use. Hearing some of the stories about HS kids using steroids is scary and a serious and potentially fatal issue. Baseball should focus ALL of their energy on eliminating steroids and similar substances from the game now and into the future and stop worrying about who did it in the past. That is pointless..eliminating it now can actually change things.

[HoustonGM]

I don't think the use of steroids should be a big issue anymore in the past...but it damn sure needs to be eliminated as thoroughly as possible so that HS kids don't get too caught up in steroid use. Hearing some of the stories about HS kids using steroids is scary and a serious and potentially fatal issue. Baseball should focus ALL of their energy on eliminating steroids and similar substances from the game now and into the future and stop worrying about who did it in the past. That is pointless..eliminating it now can actually change things.

Yeah, I agree. If the effort we put into tearing down great player's accomplishments and moralizing about the past was put into steroid education and preventive measures, and the focus removed from the players who stuck needles in their asses and returned to...you know...baseball...everybody would be a lot better off.

[HoustonGM]

Still reading through the massive BTF thread on this (and it's still growing), and there's some discussion about the benefits of steroid use for baseball players. One person's comment, in particular, struck me as very important to mention here because of the earlier discussion that since players did steroids and all, they must give them some benefit.

Willingness to use a substance does not validate that it's performance-enhancing. This is like saying that since so many people willingly smoke cigarettes in 2009, there's no way it could be dangerous to one's health.

And another:

I've looked a long time at the performance records of various players, both accused and not accused. I've looked at league patterns. At breakout seasons. I've looked across eras. I can find no discernible indicators of performance benefits derived from steroid use. Alleged steroid users are Hall of Famers and non Hall of Famers. They're productive and not productive. They're durable and injury prone. They have long careers and short careers. They have up years and down years.

What makes you so _sure_ that steroids improve baseball performance?

[ragecage]

You know, im probably one of the few guys not a Yankees fan that actually respected A-Rod. I think he goes through too much with the media and a ton of it is undeserved.

I believe Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, and others ruined the integrity of the game. You can argue every which way it is not 100% proven, but it doesnt matter with the majority of people. I was thinking that A-Rod would restore a ton of that majority when or if he breaks the home run record.

But now that is lost. I dont care if he only did it one season, its wrong and it upsets me a ton knowing that guy didnt have to resort to that to break records. Im upset at his privacy being exploited in the manner of how this report came out. I would have been happier not knowing this, just so I had some faith left in this sport of people doing things right, which I thought A-Rod was about.

[StreetMedic]

The best an innocent player can do is deny it and hope to be thoroughly proven innocent.

If someone accuses me of a crime or something this severe that I know I didn't do, I'd deny it. He should too...

Kowboy, I think you might be reading too much into this.

A-Rod (and, for the record, I can't stand him, either, BTW) is a member of the MLBPA. As such, he may simply have been instructed by the union not to say anything yet. The matter seems far from closed, so for now, this is probably just prudent "damage control", until they decide what the "official" position is going to be.

[HoustonGM]

You know, im probably one of the few guys not a Yankees fan that actually respected A-Rod. I think he goes through too much with the media and a ton of it is undeserved.

I believe Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, and others ruined the integrity of the game. You can argue every which way it is not 100% proven, but it doesnt matter with the majority of people. I was thinking that A-Rod would restore a ton of that majority when or if he breaks the home run record.

But now that is lost. I dont care if he only did it one season, its wrong and it upsets me a ton knowing that guy didnt have to resort to that to break records. Im upset at his privacy being exploited in the manner of how this report came out. I would have been happier not knowing this, just so I had some faith left in this sport of people doing things right, which I thought A-Rod was about.

What "integrity of the game"? The game has never had "integrity." That's just a utopian fantasy. Players have been cheating since the game was invented.

Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle took amphetamines. Does anybody ever accuse them of ruining the integrity of the game? Amphetamines, like steroids, are illegal drugs, and are "performance enhancers." Why are amphetamines okay for the "integrity of the game", but not steroids? Why are we so sure that players prior to the 1990's never did steroids? Can we really say that Hank Aaron definitely did not take steroids? One of his teammates from the early 70's, Tom House, has admitted that he and other players did experiment with steroids, although he didn't finger which other players.

Steroids, performance-enhancing drugs, cheating, and assortments of other things that hurt the "integrity of the game" have been part of the game forever.


BTF just keeps churning out great quotes:

There is simply too much money at stake for ALL parties involved (MLB, the players, owners, RSNs, FOX, etc.) for players NOT to juice. The idea that there has EVER been competitive integrity should be laughable if you are older than 14, because you should know better.

The fact is that even if you tested everyone for everything, there is stuff being invented that there are no tests capable of detecting, and by the time they figure out how to test, there will be something new.

if you want to see games with "competitive integrity", go watch a Tee-Ball game.

[Pavelb1]

That there's no way to determine exactly what they do for one's baseball performance, and that a great player is going to be a great player steroids or not and steroids won't turn a player into a great player? Yes, that's my stance.


Willie Mays, Pud Galvin, Mickey Mantle, Gaylord Perry, assortments of other players from the 1960's and 1970's, etc. all cheated, and nobody cares.

Amphetimines are not really any more effective than a good dose of caffiene, and a great deal of that stimulus is mental anyway....meaning you *could* fight through that fatigue, but just knowing you took something makes one feel 'up', as it were.

Just throwing that out there, I know technically it was cheating.

[gRYFYN1]

I find it funny that Arod was the one taking steroids and it MLB and the Players Union that come off looking the the Scumbags.

[HoustonGM]

I find it funny that Arod was the one taking steroids and it MLB and the Players Union that come off looking the the Scumbags.

And the government....and media.

[ragecage]

And the government....and media.

Well I think mostly everyone concluded that the government is a bunch of scumbags even if they never did anything about steroids and baseball.

[Slingshot]

Still reading through the massive BTF thread on this (and it's still growing), and there's some discussion about the benefits of steroid use for baseball players. One person's comment, in particular, struck me as very important to mention here because of the earlier discussion that since players did steroids and all, they must give them some benefit.

Excuse me, but what the hell does it matter if the effect of the steroids were big or not? It's still cheating. If you go to a test unprepared and have written out cheat notes all over the place, compared to if you've just brought one with you, you're still gonna flunk either way if you get caught. An advantage of let's say 2% over your opponent as opposed to 10% is still an unfair advantage and equals cheating in my book.

[ragecage]

What "integrity of the game"? The game has never had "integrity." That's just a utopian fantasy. Players have been cheating since the game was invented.

Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle took amphetamines. Does anybody ever accuse them of ruining the integrity of the game? Amphetamines, like steroids, are illegal drugs, and are "performance enhancers." Why are amphetamines okay for the "integrity of the game", but not steroids? Why are we so sure that players prior to the 1990's never did steroids? Can we really say that Hank Aaron definitely did not take steroids? One of his teammates from the early 70's, Tom House, has admitted that he and other players did experiment with steroids, although he didn't finger which other players.

Steroids, performance-enhancing drugs, cheating, and assortments of other things that hurt the "integrity of the game" have been part of the game forever.


BTF just keeps churning out great quotes:

Well amphetamines doesnt anger me as much as steroids. I guess because steroids helps prevents injuries from occurring while amphetamines just gives you energy to play.

But your right though, everyone has cheated, but look at it like this, McGwire was essentially done playing around 93-94 or so because of injuries, and steroids helped prolong his career to enable him to do the things he did. If he was taking amphetamine instead, he still would have been done unable to play.