A-Roids?

[filihok]

Until someone shows even remotely shows that steroid use is worse than other forms of cheating, I just can't bring myself to believe it. I understand that baseball's rules NOW impose tougher penalties for steroid use than other forms of cheating. They didn't, however, when A-Rod allegedly did steroids. The fact of the matter is that A-Rod, Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, etc. broke the rules in the exact same manner as the greats of the past. They did something that was illegal, but that baseball had no rules governing. Those players get a pass and get treated as saints, while today's players are reviled as despicable blights on the face of humanity, and it's absurd. Steroids have been around for decades. The earliest confirmed use of steroids by major league players is the 1960's. Steroid use is nothing new, and there are undoubtedly players that we revere as great, classy guys that played the game the right way that did steroids.

For me the reason is because I have more of an emotional investment in current players. I saw them play. I grew up cheering for them. I imagined I was them. The past players are nothing more than names and numbers to me while current players are flesh and blood human beings.

Of course people are going to have more pronounced feelings towards players of their own era.

[StreetMedic]

No? Then where did the term 'Nancy Drew' come from?

Evidently, you think it was coined by someone who feels J D Drew should risk his well-being for a game, then?

That may be oversimplifying it a bit. Actually, my understanding of this "Nancy" tag (as well as J D Boo, and a couple of others), is that it's not really all about him being unwilling to play hurt. It's about the overall appearance of lack of effort, not swinging at "good" pitches, being content to "take a walk" instead of trying to drive baserunners in, striking out with the bat on his shoulder, "giving up" on fly balls, lack of emotion or intensity. Y'know, just an overall "bleh" baseball personality.

And I'm not even saying all of that is even valid, Pavel, or justified in all cases. But I would guess that sort of demeanor is more offensive to a fan's baseball sensibilities than the fact that he won't play through an injury.

[KowboyKoop]

On Around the Horn, JA Adande just asked "If everyone is taking steroids, why isn't everyone as good as A-Rod?"

Wow..I really wish they wouldn't let these complete fools talk about baseball on TV.

[KowboyKoop]

I do think that increased strength CAN potentially be a negative in baseball. Again, depends on the player, though. It depends on how that increased strength affects your other actions, such as joint reflexes, etc.

Sure, at a certain point it can. I don't think "steroids" can be painted as such a broad thing where "if you did steroids, they made you significantly better and thus you can't be good without them" like some seem to want to do.

..but just like there are players who they won't help, there are some that steroids will help. It depends on the player. I view this as a mistake A-Rod made, a disappointing one. It doesn't tarnish him in my eyes b/c it's just the era they played in. As I've said many times, I wish they would stop talking about the past and worry about eliminating it for the future.

[StreetMedic]

You've never heard people accuse players of being pussies because they didn't play through injury? You've never heard people mention that Pete Rose sliding incident as evidence of his great hustle and praise him for it? Maybe people don't explicitly say that they want players to "risk their life for the game", but it's unquestionable that players that go all out and slide into walls and risk their health in an effort to win are praised, while those that shy away from that (think Bobby Abreu) get criticized for it.

Of course I have, but you're painting a much more moderate (and, dare I say, realistic?) picture of fandom than Szymborski is.

Your assessment is fair. Szymborski's isn't. He's being "over the top", to make his point. He has to be. A fair assessment on his part won't help him to back up such a shaky point as "fans are responsible for steroid use. Bad fans! Bad fans!"

I guess, then, fans are responsible for players lying about it when asked? Purjuring themselves?

The two go hand in hand: If "society's" responsible for lighting the fuse, we're responsible for the explosion, no?

But, you've got to walk pretty deep into the Blame Forest, past player ego, past the media, past owners, past trainers, past greed, before you get to the fans. And I just don't buy it.

But all that being said, HGM, we happen to agree on the basic point being discussed here: Steroids in baseball?!

/snore/

Wake me up when it's over...

(Now get to class, will ya'? You're gonna be late.)

[Arctic Blast]

On Around the Horn, JA Adande just asked "If everyone is taking steroids, why isn't everyone as good as A-Rod?"

Wow..I really wish they wouldn't let these complete fools talk about baseball on TV.

You'd have better luck seeking out intelligent discourse amongst the residents of a cemetery than the residents of Around the Horn.

[OldFatGuy]

You'd have better luck seeking out intelligent discourse amongst the residents of a cemetery than the residents of Around the Horn.

Hehe. Thanks once again for a chuckle AB.

[Arctic Blast]

Hehe. Thanks once again for a chuckle AB.

You're welcome. In all honesty, I can't watch Around the Horn...I find myself actually becoming angry that such idiotic twits are receiving regular airtime.

[KowboyKoop]

I think their coverage of other sports is alright. On ATH and PTI...they can talk about football and basketball and other lesser sports..and they at least sound reasonable some of the time...but about baseball..it's rough to listen to.

[HoustonGM]

HGM...[delete] [delete]...ahem...did he say anything breathtaking or shocking or anything other than what you expected him to say?

I wasn't expecting him to say anything. I had no idea which route he was going to take.

But don't put words into my mouth please

Didn't mean to. Sorry.

For me the reason is because I have more of an emotional investment in current players. I saw them play. I grew up cheering for them. I imagined I was them. The past players are nothing more than names and numbers to me while current players are flesh and blood human beings.

Of course people are going to have more pronounced feelings towards players of their own era.

I understand being emotionally attached differently, of course, but I wish that people were better able to separate their emotions from rational thought when it comes to say, the Hall of Fame.

However, such comments are mostly driven by what sportswriters say, because that right now is the only reaction we can really measure, and very few of those guys grew up in this era. I also think that the reaction of the general fan to steroids is a lot more tamed than the reaction of the general sportswriter. I don't think fans care nearly as much about steroids as reading the news would have you believe.

On Around the Horn, JA Adande just asked "If everyone is taking steroids, why isn't everyone as good as A-Rod?"

Wow..I really wish they wouldn't let these complete fools talk about baseball on TV.

The way some people act about steroids, that actually is a very valid counter to them. (Note: This only applies to the people that harp about A-Rod's performance record being completely illegitimate, and want records stricken from the books, and say that A-Rod is no longer an all-time great player and the like. I believe we have just one person of that type on this forum.)

[HoustonGM]

Joe Sheehan's take.

While it's a big story, however, it's not a big deal. See, we already know that baseball players great and small were using PEDs. That was the only thing of substance we learned from the Mitchell Book Report on Game of Shadows, Plus Assorted Information From Weasels the Government Shook Down For Us: the 89 players cited by name in the report as having been directly connected to PED usage were a cross-section of the baseball world, pitchers and hitters, stars and scrubs, "no!" and "who?" With a minimum of sources, and the players themselves refusing to participate, 89 players were reasonably connected to purchases, and presumably usage. We had the 2003 survey testing, which set a baseline number of "5-7 percent" of players, a figure we now know to be the high end. Throw in the players who may have stopped using prior to '03 due to attention paid to the issue, and those whose use went undetected because their drugs were just that good, and you can comfortably say that some double-digit percentage of players were using PEDs up through 2003. Great baseball players used PEDs to be better, and until 2004, no one tried very hard to stop them from doing so. Some people continue to be surprised that highly competitive young men fighting for fame, honor, and a cut of $6 billion would do everything they could to beat the guy next to them, which is a pretty good way to make the Olympic team in Naive.

Knowing Alex Rodriguez used PEDs, in the context of those names, isn't information that changes anything. A great baseball player did bad things with the implicit approval—hell, arguably explicit approval—of his peers and his employers. It's cheating, yes, which would be a problem if we hadn't been celebrating cheating in baseball since the days when guys would go first to third over the pitcher's mound. You can argue that it's different in degree, though the widely accepted use of PEDs by peers and superiors, and the use of amphetamines before them, is a strong point against that case. What is clear is that it's not different enough, in degree, to warrant the kind of histrionics we're reading and hearing over this. It's not different enough to turn Alex Rodriguez into a piñata.

My favorite quote from the article:

We hear every year around awards time that the people closest to the game know the game better than anyone, because they're in the clubhouse every day, and they talk to everyone, and they have a perspective that outsiders can't possibly understand. For those same people to do a collective Captain Renault, which they've been doing since beating up players for this transgression became acceptable, is shameful. Take your pick: they missed the story, or they were too chicken-**** to report it. In either case, the piling-on now is disgusting.

In the same way that the reporters who vote for the Hall of Fame are going to take their embarrassment out on Mark McGwire, and probably Barry Bonds and Rafael Palmeiro behind him, and god knows who to follow, they should punish themselves as well. I propose that for as long as a clearly qualified Hall of Famer remains on the ballot solely because of steroid allegations—or for that matter, proven use—there should be no J.G. Taylor Spink Award given out to writers. If we're going to allow failures during the "Steroid Era" to affect eligibility for honors, let's make sure we catch everyone who acted shamefully.

It is inevitable that we'll have the other 103 names in time, and just as inevitable that while all 104 will have done the same thing, only the successful ones will be treated harshly.

[metsguy234]

He admitted it! Yay!

[HoustonGM]

Writers Get HI

[ragecage]

Writers Get HI

Those are pretty extreme quotes right there. After marinating in this topic for a day or so, I come to the conclusion that whoever does great, are probably on something. Ill just try to enjoy it for what it is and just hold the judgement that none of these players are anything compared to the players that played back in the day.

I wont get excited if records are in danger, ill just think good for him, that needle helped him get somewhere where someone else did it with hard work and the occasional snort or scuff if that. Big whoopie. Im disappointed in the players, but I understand why they made that choice. Its all about the money.

One thing about baseball is enjoying not only the stats, but the heroes and underdogs of the game. But when you think about it, they are not heroes but businessmen and are vying to make the most money they can so they can live comfortably in the end. Maybe as a kid growing up they cared about the game, but when you get in the nuts and bolts of it, it goes from enjoying it but making a living out of it to support their wife, kids, themselves, etc.

To keep that lifestyle going, some or maybe the majority feel they have to resort to sticking a needle in their butt to perform. More power to them I guess. I know one thing, I wont spend another dollar on this business.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Those are pretty extreme quotes right there. After marinating in this topic for a day or so, I come to the conclusion that whoever does great, are probably on something. Ill just try to enjoy it for what it is and just hold the judgement that none of these players are anything compared to the players that played back in the day.

I wont get excited if records are in danger, ill just think good for him, that needle helped him get somewhere where someone else did it with hard work and the occasional snort or scuff if that. Big whoopie. Im disappointed in the players, but I understand why they made that choice. Its all about the money.

One thing about baseball is enjoying not only the stats, but the heroes and underdogs of the game. But when you think about it, they are not heroes but businessmen and are vying to make the most money they can so they can live comfortably in the end. Maybe as a kid growing up they cared about the game, but when you get in the nuts and bolts of it, it goes from enjoying it but making a living out of it to support their wife, kids, themselves, etc.

To keep that lifestyle going, some or maybe the majority feel they have to resort to sticking a needle in their butt to perform. More power to them I guess. I know one thing, I wont spend another dollar on this business.

A very fair assessment --- yes,players do it for the money,yes teams condone it because IF a player uses PEDs then THEY might win X more games or Y more championships.....as I have said before both the Union,the MLB & management have all condoned it for years & like you the whole "steroids" business has lessened my love of the sport & my view of what is a "sports star".

As a kid my heroes were Sports stars such as Mark Spitz,Franz Beckenbauer & baseball guys like Greenwell/Boggs etc unfortuntaly all this has tainted my heroes & what I consider as a hero.....it is like when I discovered that Father Christmas was not real but just my dad in a silly costume --- simply put dreams crushed & I feel worst for all those 8-18 year olds who held A-Rod or Roger the Dodger as their icons.

Baseball & its management have tarnished the ACTUAL sport & makes WWE look like a "saintly" true sport which IMO is bad,no wonder so many kids believe you have to cheat or use PEDs to get ahead !!