A-Roids?

[OldFatGuy]

I think the food example might be a little overboard, though .

Really? Ok, imagine a ballplayer's performance a month after not taking food. If you think his performance won't suffer, then I guess we do disagree. If you think his performance will suffer, then food is, by definition, a performance enhancer.

EDIT: And since someone insists on disregarding the facts ref quotes in sigs, I'll amend my sig and show that two can play the game of making up crap for quotes.

[HoustonGM]

Really? Ok, imagine a ballplayer's performance a month after not taking food. If you think his performance won't suffer, then I guess we do disagree. If you think his performance will suffer, then food is, by definition, a performance enhancer.

Well, yes, that's obvious, but I think your point would be better served by pointing to examples like weight-lifting, protein drinks, energy drinks, legal weight gain supplements, Lasik, etc.

[dickay]

Other cheats like Ted Williams, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, and Mickey Mantle?

Oh, right, it's only cheating if it's steroids...and only if you're an all-time great player.

I've not the time to go in and respond to alot of the giberish in here...but I'll just be short and sweet on this one.

You are intelligent enough to know there are different weights given to crime, cheating, etc. Baseball has decided that roid use deserves a more significant penalty than some other forms of cheating. They have their reasoning for that, of which you're free to dispute. I personally agree that it is more significant than alot of other forms of cheating.

[OldFatGuy]

Well, yes, that's obvious, but I think your point would be better served by pointing to examples like weight-lifting, protein drinks, energy drinks, legal weight gain supplements, Lasik, etc.

Yeah, true. I was taking it to the extreme.

But it still baffles me. A player's numbers are going to be inflated if he takes a drug to treat an upper respiratory infection, because he will be able to play in a day or two instead of a week or two. Therefore, since he won't miss as much time (thanks to the DRUG), his numbers are inflated. Therefore, by definition that DRUG is also a performance enhancer. Yet where's the outcry???

I've said it before, our society's nutty, kneejerk reaction to the word DRUG is utterly hilarious at times.

[HoustonGM]

I've not the time to go in and respond to alot of the giberish in here...but I'll just be short and sweet on this one.

You are intelligent enough to know there are different weights given to crime, cheating, etc. Baseball has decided that roid use deserves a more significant penalty than some other forms of cheating. They have their reasoning for that, of which you're free to dispute. I personally agree that it is more significant than alot of other forms of cheating.

Until someone shows even remotely shows that steroid use is worse than other forms of cheating, I just can't bring myself to believe it. I understand that baseball's rules NOW impose tougher penalties for steroid use than other forms of cheating. They didn't, however, when A-Rod allegedly did steroids. The fact of the matter is that A-Rod, Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, etc. broke the rules in the exact same manner as the greats of the past. They did something that was illegal, but that baseball had no rules governing. Those players get a pass and get treated as saints, while today's players are reviled as despicable blights on the face of humanity, and it's absurd. Steroids have been around for decades. The earliest confirmed use of steroids by major league players is the 1960's. Steroid use is nothing new, and there are undoubtedly players that we revere as great, classy guys that played the game the right way that did steroids.

[Pavelb1]

HGM there is no study that Steroids do or do not increase skills in whatsoever way simply because to have such a study you would need:

1) 2 groups of baseball players (say 100 in each group) - one of which did steroids,the other not for X period of time (eg 12-18 months) & then test them on the field of play for Z time (eg 200 games);
2) then you would have to stop the above study & reverse the test (ie the steroid users stopped & the placebo's start using) & then repeat this Y fold (say 20 years).....

as you can see (& it is you who have argued continually about sample sizes) it would be difficult to obtain conclusive results either way WITHOUT MLB support (& ipso facto Government support) as STEROID usage WITHOUT Medical approval is ILLEGAL.

Whatever,your beliefs,the fact simply is that non prescribed Steroid usage is ILLEGAL & also considered cheating in MLB.

Thus under these circumstances the benefits are irrelevant,any player who tested positive is a cheat & thus his acts on the field of play should be questioned.

Personally,the MLB (& the Union) are both being hypocritical - in other sports a "tested" cheat would be banned & his team WOULD lose the wins they obtained when playing.Examples abound from Marion Jones losing her 2000 medals to Juventus in Soccer who were retrograded to a lower division or Cycling teams thrown out of races (eg Astana in 07 in the Tour de France).

Either steroids are "non" harmful & non performance enhancing & can be used like other stimulants or not.... as it stands it is qualified as a BANNED PED & thus A-Rod (& the other 103 players) should have been banned & their teams' equally sanctioned.

As of now only the players' are judged & in would be in the best interest of the sport that Teams' take the "problem" as seriously & this can only happen if they equally suffer.In other sports teams TEST their players in order not to lose money,points & championships....

I believe Juventus was demoted for game-fixing...not drug use.

[Jeffy25]

Really? Ok, imagine a ballplayer's performance a month after not taking food. If you think his performance won't suffer, then I guess we do disagree. If you think his performance will suffer, then food is, by definition, a performance enhancer.

EDIT: And since someone insists on disregarding the facts ref quotes in sigs, I'll amend my sig and show that two can play the game of making up crap for quotes.

Aside from the point that you directly like to come after me simply because you do not agree with me and as anyone can see that you attack me with explicitives in your previous arguments, I will point out your gross error.

Thomas Jefferson said many quotes, very similiar to the one I have in my sig, and is on many specific websites. Since you will likely argue that each website is or conservative agenda...I'll just go from the website's that are of only quotations:

That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.
Thomas Jefferson

That government is the strongest of which every man feels himself a part.
Thomas Jefferson

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.
Thomas Jefferson

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson

Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government.
Thomas Jefferson

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...jefferson.html

This is the first site that popped up when I googled Jefferson, and I pulled a small amount of his quotes to prove the point....it sure does appear he favored small gov't. and it completely makes sense that he would have said the words in my signature. Go to more sites if you wish, it appears he very likely could have said the same quote that my apparently "conservative" websites would have said.

OFG, you seem to love to come after me with really no true point or necessary purpose. You basically attacked my thread "our economy in a nut shell" with zero points...other then saying I was lying, which you have no point in saying since you have no facts.

I have drifted plenty far with with this and gotten off the point of this thread. However, I will leave you with this quote:

A coward is much more exposed to quarrels than a man of spirit.
Thomas Jefferson

[HoustonGM]

I'll just ask that you two keep that discussion in the thread in which it originally came up in.

[Jeffy25]

I just don't see how you can really PROVE that steriod use is directly linked to improving a baseball player's ability to hit a ball, or be a great player. All baseball players do what they can to improve....and besides the point: what does it matter if he did this in 03'? he isn't now, and there were no rules saying he couldn't.

[Jeffy25]

I'll just ask that you two keep that discussion in the thread in which it originally came up in.

I promise to do so from this point forward

[OldFatGuy]

Aside from the point that you directly like to come after me simply because you do not agree with me and as anyone can see that you attack me with explicitives in your previous arguments, I will point out your gross error.

Thomas Jefferson said many quotes, very similiar to the one I have in my sig, and is on many specific websites. Since you will likely argue that each website is or conservative agenda...I'll just go from the website's that are of only quotations:

That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.
Thomas Jefferson

That government is the strongest of which every man feels himself a part.
Thomas Jefferson

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.
Thomas Jefferson

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson

Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government.
Thomas Jefferson

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...jefferson.html

This is the first site that popped up when I googled Jefferson, and I pulled a small amount of his quotes to prove the point....it sure does appear he favored small gov't. and it completely makes sense that he would have said the words in my signature. Go to more sites if you wish, it appears he very likely could have said the same quote that my apparently "conservative" websites would have said.

OFG, you seem to love to come after me with really no true point or necessary purpose. You basically attacked my thread "our economy in a nut shell" with zero points...other then saying I was lying, which you have no point in saying since you have no facts.

I have drifted plenty far with with this and gotten off the point of this thread. However, I will leave you with this quote:

A coward is much more exposed to quarrels than a man of spirit.
Thomas Jefferson

My only point or purpose was to point out your falsehoods. You claimed to pay over a million dollars in taxes to the U.S. Treasury on only two million dollars in total revenue. It's a lie. No American citizen is taxed at that rate.

You just listed several quotes from Thomas Jefferson.

NOT ONE OF THE THEM WAS THE QUOTE YOU ATTRIBUTED TO HIM IN YOUR SIG. Gerald Ford made that quote, NOT Thomas Jefferson.

Therefore, it too is a lie.

If you want to make up lies and distortions to make your points, then I'm going to show you that I can too. If you want to have a discussion on the merits of taxation or the role of government, I'd love to have that discussion too. In fact, I think you'd be surprised at how much I probably agree with you (not on taxation though ). But using falsehoods and distortions to make one's point irritates me to no end, and I will call anyone out on it (not just you, though I suppose I see why you feel like it's just you).

I could come up with several Jefferson quotes I too agree with. Particularly those on the liberty, the tyranny of the majority, and the limits of good government. But I'd rather not make up stuff to make my point, even though I did just that in my sig. George Washington is not the one that said that.

[OldFatGuy]

Sorry HGM. Just saw your post above.

No more posts here. My bad.

[gRYFYN1]

I just don't see how you can really PROVE that steriod use is directly linked to improving a baseball player's ability to hit a ball, or be a great player. All baseball players do what they can to improve....and besides the point: what does it matter if he did this in 03'? he isn't now, and there were no rules saying he couldn't.

Of course there's no proof, we have no clue what guys are taking or how much they are taking or where any kind of baseline exists for any comparisons.

And, actually Steroids, as an illegal, substance, were banned in 1991. Commissioner Vincent at the time sent a memo to MLB clubs stating so, Granted there were no tests or specific punishment for it.

[Jeffy25]

So I leave ESPN on usually during the day while working: and who else is tired of hearing about A-ROID?

[HoustonGM]

Of course there's no proof, we have no clue what guys are taking or how much they are taking or where any kind of baseline exists for any comparisons.

And, actually Steroids, as an illegal, substance, were banned in 1991. Commissioner Vincent at the time sent a memo to MLB clubs stating so, Granted there were no tests or specific punishment for it.

That memo was essentially meaningless. All it was was a reminder that (some) steroids were against the law. Any official MLB drug policy must be collectively bargained with the union. It had no power. Fay Vincent, in an interview with Maury Brown, said as much:

BizBall: So, on the contents of the memo, was the subject matter of the document broached to the union at the time, or was this a matter of this is an internal thing sent to the clubs, “Please be aware.”

Vincent: I don’t know the answer to that question. I think it would have been highly unusual to raise it with the union because we knew that there was a contract with them there was no way we could do anything in the middle of the contract. And, I think it was really our attempt to be on record, if this was our universe, if we controlled the whole thing, this is what we would do. And we did it, but we did it only for the people that were not covered by the Collective Bargaining Agreement.