A thousand miles from Cooperstown

[HoustonGM]

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...m-cooperstown/

Interesting article on great non-HoF/HoM players.

My post-1900 "All non-HoF/HoM Team":

C - Gene Tenace
1B - Norm Cash
2B - Larry Doyle
3B - Ron Cey
SS - Bert Campaneris
LF - Bob Johnson
CF - Tommy Leach
RF - Bobby Bonds
SP - Rick Reuschel
RP - Dan Quisenberry

My post-1900 "All non-HoF Team":

C - Ted Simmons
1B - Keith Hernandez
2B - Bobby Grich
3B - Ron Santo
SS - Alan Trammell
LF - Tim Raines
CF - Jimmy Wynn
RF - Dwight Evans
SP - Bert Blyleven
RP - Dan Quisenberry

[Swampdog]

For what its worth, as I see it, these are the best players who are not in the Hall of Fame, by career value. I know nothing about the "HoM", whatever that is (Hall of Misery?), and there are no adjustments for peak value at all. Best players, by position, in order of career value:

C Ted Simmons, Joe Torre, Brian Downing, Bill Freehan

1B Dick Allen, Will Clark, Fred McGriff, Norm Cash, Keith Hernandez

2B Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich, Willie Randolph

3B Darrel Evans, Ron Santo, Craig Nettles, Stan Hack

SS Bill Dahlen, Alan Trammell, Bert Campaneris, Tony Fernandez

LF Tim Raines, Jose Cruz, Frank Howard, Joe Jackson

CF Reggie Smith, Willie Davis, Vada Pinson, Cesar Cedeno

RF Rusty Staub, Dwight Evans, Andre Dawson, Dave Parker

P Bert Blyleven, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Wilbur Cooper, Luis Tiant

Misc Pete Rose (of course), best player not in the HOF in career value.

Note- I have left out a few of the dead-ballers....Sherry Magee, Van Haltren, Sheckard, etc., I know. Thats because I dont know much about that era and really don't trust the stats. I did include Dahlen because, from everything I can see, he might be the absolute best player not in the Hall, behind Rose. Also, I know that some players played slightly more games at other positions (Smith, Torre, Downing), but I placed them at the more demanding position. Again...no peak considered here.

[HoustonGM]

The Hall of Merit, and it's Plaque Room.

Of the 38 players you listed, 22 of them have been elected to the Hall of Merit, with the odd men out beind Brian Downing, Fred McGriff (not yet eligible), Norm Cash, Bert Campaneris, Tony Fernandez, Jose Cruz, Frank Howard, Willie Davis, Vada Pinson, Cesar Cedeno, Rusty Staub, Dave Parker, and the non-Blyleven pitchers. Since the HoM isn't a straight career ranking (although it has some pure career voters, and on the flipside, some pure peak voters), which is what you're using, that likely explains the differences.

Just curious, why did you include Fred McGriff but not Barry Larkin and Roberto Alomar?

[OregonDuck1989]

So the hall of merit is baseball think factory's Hall of Fame? Or am I off?

Interesting article.

EDIT: Woops just saw Houston's links...Never mind on that first question.

[Pavelb1]

Not one mention of Dale Murphy yet?

[HoustonGM]

Not one mention of Dale Murphy yet?

Great peak, but little outside of that.

In my rankings of non-HoM inductees, I have Murphy 6th amongst center fielders, behind Tommy Leach, Hugh Duffy, Dom DiMaggio, Jimmy Ryan, and George Van Haltren.

[Jeffy25]

it's a shame ted simmions isn't a hall of famer and yet johnny bench is....compare their numbers....

[HoustonGM]

it's a shame ted simmions isn't a hall of famer and yet johnny bench is....compare their numbers....

They're not comparable. Bench is better by a decent amount... And that's without factoring in Bench's phenomenal defense to Simmons roughly average defense, which moves the gap from 'decent amount' to "Johnny Bench is the best catcher ever to play in Major League Baseball."

Simmons definitely should be in the Hall, and it is pretty baffling that he's not, but there's simply no comparison to Johnny Bench.

[Swampdog]

The Hall of Merit, and it's Plaque Room.

Of the 38 players you listed, 22 of them have been elected to the Hall of Merit, with the odd men out beind Brian Downing, Fred McGriff (not yet eligible), Norm Cash, Bert Campaneris, Tony Fernandez, Jose Cruz, Frank Howard, Willie Davis, Vada Pinson, Cesar Cedeno, Rusty Staub, Dave Parker, and the non-Blyleven pitchers. Since the HoM isn't a straight career ranking (although it has some pure career voters, and on the flipside, some pure peak voters), which is what you're using, that likely explains the differences.

Just curious, why did you include Fred McGriff but not Barry Larkin and Roberto Alomar?

For obvious reasons. I would think that you would immediately figure that out.

[HoustonGM]

For obvious reasons. I would think that you would immediately figure that out.

The only thing that comes to mind is that you think they're going to get in this year... but I'm not so sure of that.

[Coach Owens]

Why Keith Hernandez and not John Olerud?

[HoustonGM]

Why Keith Hernandez and not John Olerud?

Because Hernandez was better.

[Coach Owens]

Because Hernandez was better.

How?

[Swampdog]

Because Hernandez was better.

A lot better.

Btw, for career value of non-HOF'ers, I have Murphy behind Smith, Davis, Pinson, Cedeno, Al Oliver, and Jimmy Wynn. About the same career value as Brett Butler, actually.

Bench was better than Simmons.

[HoustonGM]

How?

The simplest answer is that Hernandez is the best defensive first basemen ever and while Olerud was very good, he wasn't Hernandez.

The more complicated answer would also include their eras. The 1980's were a lot harder to dominate, while the 1990's were much easier. Hernandez placed in the top 8 in his league in OPS+ 6 times (3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8), for example, while Olerud had 3 top 10 finishes (1, 3, 10).