Let me know if I'm forgetting anybody (all-time rankings)

[HoustonGM]

Cross-posting some posts from All-Time Positional Rankings.

Just to reiterate some points. I've decided to become a voter for Baseball Think Factory's Hall of Merit, and as such, I have to rank basically every eligible player that has a substantial, good career.

I started by ranking the already inducted players at each (non-pitcher) position. My next step is to rank the non-inducted eligible players at each position, after which I will combine all the non-inducted players into a huge rank, which will form the basis of my 15-player ballot come the next election. Every MLB and Negro League player in history that has not been inducted is eligible for consideration. Obviously, I'll only be considering those that had a substantial career AND were good. Thus, Alfredo Griffin won't be ranked by me, because although he has a substantial career, he was clearly not a very good player.

As I said, I'm now on to ranking the non-inducted eligible players. Below are posts from my previous thread in which I posted by rankings of inducted players. I started ranking the non-inducted guys at third base, so below is my ranking of the third basemen. If there's any third basemen I haven't ranked that I may be forgetting, please post them (and just to restate, I'm considering all MLB and Negro League players who last appeared in a game no later than 2004 and isn't already inducted).

If you disagree with any of the rankings, also, feel free to post, as I'm not 100% set with these yet so I'm willing to be persuaded. Of course, if you're going to, please make a good argument. Don't tell me that Pie Traynor "feels better" than Buddy Bell just because Traynor is in the Hall of Fame. That's not an argument. I do, however, wish to hear fair arguments on the rankings as I'm more than open to revising them.

Okay, I've begun ranking the non-HoM players, and now here's where I could use your help. I started at third base:

1. Tommy Leach
2. Ron Cey
3. Buddy Bell
4. Robin Ventura
5. Toby Harrrah
6. Bob Elliott
7. Bus Clarkson
8. Pie Traynor
9. Lave Cross
10. Matt Williams
11. Sal Bando
12. Al Rosen
13. Ned Williamson

I'm also going to rank Tommy Leach with the center fielders, which is probably where he "officially" belongs, although he spent basically equal time at both third and center.

Anyway, what I need your help on is letting me know if you think I've forgotten any third basemen. I'll post the other positions as I get around to them, but we'll start off at third base. So, anybody I've forgotten? Only include players that last played in 2004 or earlier, though, as the more recent players are not yet HoM-eligible.

Edgar Martinez last played in 2004, so I guess that he should be on the list. He didn't play a lot of games at 3rd, but the vast majority of his time in the field was there.

I'm keeping Edgar separate, and just mixing him in when I combine each position into an overall ranking (which is what will constitute my ballot for next year's HoM election).

[HoustonGM]

Changes at third base:

1. Tommy Leach
2. Ron Cey
3. Buddy Bell
4. Robin Ventura
5. Toby Harrrah
6. Bob Elliott
7. Bus Clarkson
8. Pie Traynor
9. Lave Cross
10. Matt Williams
11. Sal Bando
12. Billy Nash
13. Harlond Clift
14. Ned Williamson
15. Larry Gardner
16. Al Rosen

Any thoughts?

[dickay]

here's what first occurred to me when looking at this...and don't take it the wrong way.

After realizing you were ranking all 'non-HOF' players, my first thought was dang, if you could put forth the same dedication and motivation into learning and projecting the stock market, not only would you get wealthy but i'd consider using you for financial advice.

As for my opinion of your ranking, I don't know who half those fockers are and really don't care lol.

[HoustonGM]

After realizing you were ranking all 'non-HOF' players,

Not ALL.

my first thought was dang, if you could put forth the same dedication and motivation into learning and projecting the stock market, not only would you get wealthy but i'd consider using you for financial advice.

I would...if it interested me .

[HoustonGM]

Updated third base:

1. Tommy Leach
2. Ron Cey
3. Buddy Bell
4. Robin Ventura
5. Toby Harrrah
6. Bob Elliott
7. Bus Clarkson
8. Pie Traynor
9. Lave Cross
10. Matt Williams
11. Sal Bando
12. Billy Nash
13. Harlond Clift
14. Ned Williamson
15. Larry Gardner
16. Al Rosen
17. Bill Madlock
18. George Kell

And catchers:

1. Gene Tenace
2. Thurman Munson
3. Wally Schang
4. Ernie Lombardi
5. Lance Parrish
6. Elston Howard
7. Darrell Porter
8. Sherm Lollar
9. Rick Ferrell
10. Ray Schalk
11. Benito Santiago

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

Benito Santiago on the list for catchers, perhaps?

EDIT: Whoops, didn't realize he played a couple games for the Pirates in '05.

[HoustonGM]

Another point stemming from the catchers, I decided to include all the Hall of Fame players that aren't in the HoM in these rankings, even if they're so far below any reasonable threshold (except for Tommy McCarthy who got in for "innovations" and those that got in for their managerial time only). So, there are probably a good amount of catchers better than Ferrell and Schalk, two Hall of Famers, that I'm not ranking.

[HoustonGM]

Benito Santiago on the list for catchers, perhaps?

EDIT: Whoops, didn't realize he played a couple games for the Pirates in '05.

I just noticed on the HoM discussion thread for the 2010 ballot, Benito Santiago and Juan Gonzalez are on the list of first-time eligibles, marked with asterisks, despite playing in 2005. The HoM might have an eligibility rule that I was unaware of that ignores miniscule amounts of playing time.

This rule is in the HoM rules:

To discount token appearances, a player becomes eligible 5 years after the first time he plays fewer than 10 games in the field or pitches in fewer than 5 games, assuming he never plays in 10/pitches in 5 games again. If he does play in 10/pitch in 5 games later in his career, the HoM ballot committee will determine in which year the player’s HoM eligibility begins.

and that could be interpreted as ignoring any seasons of less than 10 games, but it's not specifically clear. Given that Santiago and Gonzalez are listed as eligible now, I'll rank them both.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

I just noticed on the HoM discussion thread for the 2010 ballot, Benito Santiago and Juan Gonzalez are on the list of first-time eligibles, marked with asterisks, despite playing in 2005. The HoM might have an eligibility rule that I was unaware of that ignores miniscule amounts of playing time.

Where would you rank him, if at all, if he was rank-able?

[HoustonGM]

Where would you rank him, if at all, if he was rank-able?

Just ranked him, and he's in last. Schalk and Ferrell were both better defenders, and didn't consume outs to no end.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

Fair enough, lol.

I wasn't arguing that he absolutely should be on the list, but he was a solidly above-average catcher for a while and seemed worthy to be mentioned with some of the names lower on that list. He's certainly not better than Parrish or anyone in the top five, but I thought he was solidly lumped with the guys lower on the list.

[HoustonGM]

There's a rather large gap between Darrell Porter and Sherm Lollar. The final four guys - Lollar, Ferrell, Schalk, and Santiago - are tightly bunched.

[Wassit3]

There's a rather large gap between Darrell Porter and Sherm Lollar. The final four guys - Lollar, Ferrell, Schalk, and Santiago - are tightly bunched.

Darrel Porter! I remeber watching him play as a kid, I always felt he was underappreciated, glad to see him be on your list

[dps]

Remind me again, for players who split time between different positions--do they get ranked at the position they spent the most time at, or the position at which they had the most value, or is there some other method to determine where to put them?

[HoustonGM]

Remind me again, for players who split time between different positions--do they get ranked at the position they spent the most time at, or the position at which they had the most value, or is there some other method to determine where to put them?

Generally, the position which they had the most value, hence why Ernie Banks is a shortstop even though he had more time at first base. If you aren't sure, just post and I'll decide for myself. Like with Tommy Leach, I'm not sure how the HoM would place him, so I'm ranking him with both the third basemen and centerfielders. That's irrelevant when it comes to the overall ballot though.