Rageys All Decades Teams

[ragecage]

Well thank goodness I only made one other mistake, and that was calling Rod Carew the best 1B of the 70's. He played 2B for 6 years before moving to 1st when he had some of his best years. So Im going to give the award to Tony Perez and make Carew an honorable mention for 2B. Morgan still has him beat hands down.

[ragecage]

Wow. I got a bit confused there. Misread your statement about Ripken being "2nd fiddle" to Yount, and also neglected to double check your 1980 SS. I should've been giving both you and RSR earfulls.

Thats what I was sayin. lol But during the 80's I really like the offensive production of Yount compared to Ripken.

[RedsoxRockies]

Thats what I was sayin. lol But during the 80's I really like the offensive production of Yount compared to Ripken.

And Yount has a better name. And if you want to be like Joe Morgan when you grow up, you gotta take that in perspective.

[ragecage]

1950's Team

C - Yogi Berra NYY

HM - Roy Campanella BRO

1B - Gil Hodges BRO,LA

HM - Ted Kluszewski CIN/PIT

2B - Red Schoendienst STL/NYG

HM - Nellie Fox CHW

3B - Eddie Mathews MIL

HM - Eddie Yost WAS/DET

SS - Pee Wee Reese BRO,LA

HM - Phil Rizzuto NYY

LF - Ted Williams BOS

HM - Minnie Minoso CLE/CHW

CF - Willie Mays NYG,SF

HM - Mickey Mantle NYY, Duke Snider BRO,LA, Larry Doby CLE/CHW/DET

RF - Al Kaline DET

HM - None

SP - Warren Spahn BSN,MIL, Robin Roberts PHI, Early Wynn CLE/CHW, Whitey Ford NYY

[RedsoxRockies]

Musial over Williams? Sorry, but no way. Musial had a longer career, but that's it. Williams was all around better. Even if you take out his Korean War time in the 50's, that is only one full season.

[Swampdog]

I dont know exactly how you rated your players. For example, are you looking for the best players by decade, based on precisely what each player accomplished in that ten year span, or are you looking for the best overall players who just happened to play in a particular decade? Or, is it a subjective combination of both?

Anyway, its your team and you certainly have the right to pick whoever you want to (just like I would do when I select my all-whatever teams), and I'm sure there will be no bad players involved.

Anyway, I thought it might be interesting to compare your choices with the best by decade, according to Win Shares. Of course, the Win Shares method only considers a particular individuals performance in the decade in question. Here goes, the 1980's....

Catcher: Cary Carter far and away the best of the decade. Parrish and Fisk a distant second and third.

1B: Eddie Murray, easily.Hernandez the runner-up.

2B: Lou Whitaker, followed by Ryne Sandberg.

3B: Schmidt, of course. Boggs edges Brett for second best.

SS: Ripken and Trammel tied. (Yount went to CF in 1985, giving him ½ the years at SS, and ½ in CF. If you call him a SS, he easily is the best of the 80's). Ozzie Smith is third.

LF: Rickey Henderson. Tim Raines is a distant second. Henderson has more Win Shares than any other player in the decade of the 1980's.

CF: Yount easily beats Murphy. Way ahead of Willie Wilson.

RF: Dwight Evans. Jack Clark is next, followed by Dawson.

Utility Guy: Pedro Guerrero. He didnt really have a position, playing lots of games at 3B, 1B, LF and RF. He even played 108 games in CF. According to WS though, he ranked #11 in value in the 80's. He wouldn't rank in the top 3 at #3B, but would tie Hernandez for second at 1B. He would have been third in LF, and second in RF, behind Evans. Just a man without a position, really.

SP: The best pitcher of the 80's was Dave Stieb. Rounding out the rotation would be, in order, Jack Morris, Bert Blyleven, Fernando Valenzuela, and a tie for 5'th between Charlie Hough and Bob Welch.

RP: Quisenberry, easily. Smith and Reardon follow.

Differences. Boone is way down the list at catcher, whereas you list him fourth. Mattingly is a distant third, by WS methods. You somehow overlook Mike Schmidt, and by ANY measure, he was better than Brett and Boggs at 3B. Gywnn rates fifth in RF, behind Winfield.

Starting pitching shows a large discrepancy. Of the best pitchers by WS, you only include Stieb. Of your others, Ryan is 7'th , Clemens 14'th , and Hershiser 9'th. Obviously, Clemens is better than any other pitcher named, by a large margin. He just didn't have as much value in the 80's because he was a regular starter for just 4 years (86-89), and a small part of two others.

Anyway, this is not a criticism. I avoid "decade" lists due to the "Clemens" conundrum, above. Hard to leave Clemens off a "greatest" list in favor of Charlie Hough, but thats how it goes, I guess.

[HoustonGM]

Musial over Williams? Sorry, but no way. Musial had a longer career, but that's it. Williams was all around better. Even if you take out his Korean War time in the 50's, that is only one full season.

He played in 6 in 1952, and 37 in 1953. That's way more than one full season.

Musial played 1,456 games in the 50's. Williams, 998.

However, Musial probably should be the first basemen. In 1950 and 1951, he split time nearly equal in the outfield and at first. In 1952, 53,54, primarily an outfielder. The rest of the way, primarily a first basemen. 721 games at first base, 710 in the outfield. Nearly equal split, but he belongs on the "team", so I'd put him at first and Williams in left.

[HoustonGM]

I dont know exactly how you rated your players. For example, are you looking for the best players by decade, based on precisely what each player accomplished in that ten year span, or are you looking for the best overall players who just happened to play in a particular decade? Or, is it a subjective combination of both?

I'm pretty sure he's doing the first - what each player accomplished in that ten year span.

[Swampdog]

Same thing for the 1970's.....

C: Johnny Bench. By a mile. Ted Simmons, Thurman Munson, Gene Tenace, Carlton Fisk in the 2-5 slots. As Sox fan, I was surprised to see Fisk rank so poorly. Although he wasn't a starter until 1972, and he missed time to injuries.

1B: Willie Stargell (although he played almost as much in LF). Tony Perez, Bob Watson, Steve Garvey.

2B: Joe Morgan. Morgan is the MVP of the 70's, by WS. Carew a distant second (he played more at 2B than 1B in the 70's, although, like Stargell, its close). Bobby Grich and Dave lopes in third and fourth. (If you place Carew at 1B, he beats Stargell).

3B: Craig Nettles edges Sal Bando by 2 WS. Then Schmidt, Darrel Evans, and Ron Cey.

SS: Toby Harrah (Surprise!). Again, he played a lot at 3B too. Concepcion, and Bert Campaneris at second and third. If you move Harrah to 3B, he edges Cey for the #5 spot.



LF: Carl Yastrzemski. Actually he belongs at 1B, but I put him here because Rage did, and thats where we think of Yaz, in LF. Followed by Roy White (Surprise #2), Lou Brock, Joe Rudi. Now, Stargell vs Yaz. Either could be at 1B, or LF. Wherever you place them, Stargell had more WS, 230-218. Yaz would edge out Perez at 1B too. So Stargell is #1 at 1B or LF, and Yaz is right behind him, and better than anyone else.

CF: Amos Otis. Somewhat of another surprise. Cesar Cedeno is second, then Al Oliver and Rick Monday.

RF: Reggie Jackson, with Bobby Bonds (you might have heard of his son, Barry) the runner-up. Bobby Murcer, Ken Singleton and Reggie Smith round out the top 5.

Utility Guy: A guy named Pete Rose. Started at four different positions (IB, 3B, LF, RF), but played the most at 3B, I believe. Rose was the second most valuable player of the 70's, behind only Joe Morgan. In fact, the top 5 players of the 1970's were....Joe Morgan 315, Pete Rose 288, Johnny Bench 263, Reggie Jackson 262, and Bobby Bonds 249.

SP: Jim Palmer edges out Tom Seaver. Then Gaylord Perry, Phil Niekro, Ferguson Jenkins. (Rest of the top 10.... Carlton, Blyleven, Sutton, Ryan, and Luis Tiant). This kind of demonstrates whats wrong with "decade lists". It's random, depending on when you happened to start, and finsih your career. Dave Stieb, the #1 SP of the 80's, would rank 8'th in the 70's, between Blyleven and Sutton.

RP: Mike Marshall, Rollie Fingers, Sparky lyle, and John Hiller. All close, the corresponding WS were 134, 126, 124, 121.

Discrepancies in the 70's....

Well, you overvalue Brooks Robinson at 3B, and undervalue the best, Nettles. You missed Toby Harrah, just like everyone else does, including me. Missed Otis in CF, although Al Oliver was a good catch. Winfield doesn't belong on the list.

Pete Rose. Is he ineligible for your Hall-of-the 1970's too? Because, if not,he belongs someplace.

Oh, and one other thing. Billy Hamilton. Since he died in 1940, he probably didn't play much in the 70's, as you noted. In fact, the records show that he last played in 1901. He might have been a great outfielder, but even if he wasn't really dead, he would have been 104 years old on opening day, 1970. I don't think he should be included on a 70's decade team.

[Swampdog]

Decade of the 1960's, by Win Shares...

C: Joe Torre wins easily. He had moved to 1B by the end of the decade. If you dont count Torre, the next four are extremely close, as follows; Tom Haller 152, Bill Freehan 151, Elston Howard 148, and John Roseboro 148.

1B: Willie McCovey narrowly beats out Norm Cash (always underrated and forgotten), followed by Cepeda, Bill White, and Ernie Banks.

2B: Pete Rose (although he had moved to the OF by the end of the decade) handily over Bill Mazeroski. A huge dropoff in quality, then Tony Taylor, Julian Javier, and Ron Hunt.

3B: Ron Santo, hands down. Brooks Robinson, Eddie Mathews, Dick Allen and Ken Boyer.

SS: Maury Wills is the clear winner. Jim Fregosi, Luis Aparicio, Dick Groat, Leo Cardenas.

LF: Carl Yastrzemski barely beats out Frank Howard and Billy Williams (231-229-227). Bob Allison and then Lou Brock.

CF: Willie Mays. Really, there is absolutely no one else in the discussion. Mays wins by the largest margin I have seen so far. He is 89 WS ahead of Mantle during the 60's. Yet, Mays is the second best ballplayer in this decade. Ok, in CF its Mays, Mantle, Pinson, Flood, and Willie Davis.

RF: Henry Aaron, the most valuable player of the decade (by 340-337) over Mays. Others in RF...Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline, and Johnny Callison.

Utility Guy: Harmon Killebrew. He could be at 1B or 3B, and even played the outfield. The thing is...he is the best at either first or third base, beating out McCovey (257-237) or Santo (257-249).

SP: Juan Marichal edges out Bob Gibson, 216-213. Followed by Drysdale, Bunning, Koufax, Larry Jackson (?), Kaat, Jim Maloney and Dean Chance.

RP: Hoyt Wilhelm easily over Ron Perranoski , Lindy McDaniel, and Stu Miller.

Differences....Norm Cash and Cepeda were far better than Ernie Banks at 1B. Bill White was better too. Pete Rose is missing from the 60's team too, and I'm not sure if thats intentional or not. He was better than Maz. Santo probably should be in the HOF, and he was better than Brooks in the 60's. Very nice selections at SS. Same in LF, except that Stargell doesnt belong on the team at all, probably shouldn't even be selling hot dogs when this team plays. Real nice catch on Pinson as well. In RF, in the 60's you have all the right guys, but the order is not difficult. Its clearly Aaron, Robinson, Clemente, Kaline...

Rage named the 5 best pitchers, and I dont know if he places them in any particular order. If Koufax is #1, its a mistake. Marichal and Gibson had more value in the decade. Wilhelm and Face? Huh? Wilhelm was far and away the best of the decade. Face doesnt even get in the discussion.

[ragecage]

Heres a response to swampys comments...

I dont know exactly how you rated your players. For example, are you looking for the best players by decade, based on precisely what each player accomplished in that ten year span, or are you looking for the best overall players who just happened to play in a particular decade? Or, is it a subjective combination of both?

Basically its who I think was the best player for said position in the decade, and that who basically played at least 8 years or more. Not someone who was great but maybe played 5 seasons. Doing it that way threw out some people who you may think should be there. The only exception I made was Koufax because of injury and the fact he put up such ungodly numbers.

Rage named the 5 best pitchers, and I dont know if he places them in any particular order. If Koufax is #1, its a mistake. Marichal and Gibson had more value in the decade. Wilhelm and Face? Huh? Wilhelm was far and away the best of the decade. Face doesnt even get in the discussion

They are not in any particular order, but they were among the best in that decade. Really Face and Wilhelm were the top relievers and introduced the importance of the true save. I think Face deserved to be in there because he and Wilhelm are pioneers, but I agree Wilhelm was so much better.

Oh, and one other thing. Billy Hamilton. Since he died in 1940, he probably didn't play much in the 70's, as you noted. In fact, the records show that he last played in 1901. He might have been a great outfielder, but even if he wasn't really dead, he would have been 104 years old on opening day, 1970. I don't think he should be included on a 70's decade team.

I actually said Billy Williams, not Billy Hamilton.

Two more things, first Pete Rose, I really had trouble putting him in there because he played multiple positions and its really hard to put him somewhere because of that.

The 2nd thing about Musial and Williams, I made an error on that because I was reading the fielding stats wrong and reversed the games he played in the outfield to what he played at first. So you are correct to point that out. Because of that I dont even think I can put Musial at first base because he split time between 1B and OF in the 50's, so that wouldnt qualify.

[ragecage]

In hindsight, I really shouldve done a Utility guy that played multiple positions. ****

[HoustonGM]

You said Billy Hamilton :

Note: Im going to explain myself on this one, there was many fine players in this time which could have been better, like Dale Murphy and Fred Lynn or even veterans Jimmy Wynn and Billy Hamilton, but these guys only played about half the decade if that. Im looking for players that played great in the majority of the decade.

You MEANT to say Williams.

[ragecage]

You said Billy Hamilton :

You MEANT to say Williams.

ah yes...the list shows Williams as a HM. But yeah u r correct sir.

[ragecage]

This is very difficult due to the fact many players left the game to fight in WWII. So I am going to consider players that missed time due to the war.

1940's Team

C - Walker Cooper STL/NYG/CIN *7 Time All Star

HM - Jim Hegan CLE

Hegan was poor offensively but was one of the best game callers at the time. There wasnt many options to choose from because Berra and Campanella were rooks in around 1948.

1B - Johnny Mize STL/NYG/NYY

HM - Stan Musial STL

2B - Bobby Doerr BOS

HM: Joe Gordon NYY/CLE

Slight edge over Joe, Doerr was very consistent in the 40's and Gordon had 2 seasons where he wasnt his true self.

3B - George Kell DET/PHA

HM - Ken Keltner CLE

SS - Luke Appling CHW, Vern Stephens SLB/BOS

HM - Lou Boudreau CLE, Pee Wee Reese BRO, Phil Rizzuto NYY

LF - Ted Williams BOS

HM - Charlie Keller NYY

CF - Joe DiMaggio NYY

HM - Dom DiMaggio BOS

RF - Enos Slaughter STL

HM - Carl Furrilo BRO (didnt play enough but was awfully good)

SP - Bob Feller CLE, Warren Spahn BSN (fought in WWII), Al Newhouser DET, Johnny Sain BSN, Harry Brecheen STL