Which one's a Hall of Famer?

[RedsoxRockies]

Well, he was hurt alot, so I'm going to assume he didn't.

Steroids cause bone breakdown, and mess up ligaments...

[ragecage]

Even though Jose Canseco said Juan Gonzalez did steroids!?!


The point of this is that even putting aside the steroid issue, Juan Gonzalez would likely fall off the HoF ballot very quickly, while Jim Rice will be inducted this spring...but they were both extremely similar players.

(It should be noted that both of Juan Gonzalez's MVP awards were undeserved, but the BBWAA voters don't care about that. All they care about is that he won them. And even with that, he's likely to fall off the ballot quickly, and would still be likely to fall off quickly without the very minuscule steroid taint.)

I think if Juan played anywhere but Texas in his prime years, talk about him would be much different. The steroid era also makes his value drop dramatically. If we have seen those type of numbers in any other era of baseball, he would totally be in.

[wahoosamC]

Jim Rice has no business getting a single vote if Albert Belle couldn't get 5%.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

Well, he was hurt alot, so I'm going to assume he didn't.

You do realize that steroids make it MORE likely and EASIER for injury to occur?

It is obviously possible, due to his health meltdown, but that could just as easily be unrelated. And Jose Canseco is not exactly the most trust-worthy guy in the game.

Jose Canseco may not be the nicest or most moral guy, but a lot of what he's said has come to be. I'd believe him at this point.

[HoustonGM]

Of course, then there's Rafael Palmeiro who was a model of durability, with 17 consecutive seasons of 150+ games, his last coming at age 39. (I'm counting the strike years as 150+ because in 1994 he played 111 of 112 games and in 1995 he played 143 of 144 games).

This is just to say that you cannot draw any conclusion about a player's steroid use from his health record.

[ragecage]

Jim Rice has no business getting a single vote if Albert Belle couldn't get 5%.

The steroid era has made it very difficult to determine who is Hall worthy and who isnt. I think in the end, we will see the majority of players during the steroid era getting in the HOF will be pitchers, even though they used as well.

[HoustonGM]

I think if Juan played anywhere but Texas in his prime years, talk about him would be much different. The steroid era also makes his value drop dramatically. If we have seen those type of numbers in any other era of baseball, he would totally be in.

132 OPS+ to Rice's 128 OPS+, which compares players to their league.

[RedsoxRockies]

Of course, then there's Rafael Palmeiro who was a model of durability, with 17 consecutive seasons of 150+ games, his last coming at age 39. (I'm counting the strike years as 150+ because in 1994 he played 111 of 112 games and in 1995 he played 143 of 144 games).

This is just to say that you cannot draw any conclusion about a player's steroid use from his health record.

True, but it has been proven steriods can effect health. Just to point it out, not that they necessarily did in these players

[HoustonGM]

The steroid era has made it very difficult to determine who is Hall worthy and who isnt. I think in the end, we will see the majority of players during the steroid era getting in the HOF will be pitchers, even though they used as well.

I've never understood this, either. The steroid era hasn't made anything "difficult." The 1920's and 30's didn't make it more difficult to assess who was a Hall of Famer, even though they were a higher offensive level compared to the deadball era than the steroid era was compared to the 1970's.

We just simply have to judge players based on their era, and nothing is difficult about that.

[HoustonGM]

True, but it has been proven steriods can effect health. Just to point it out, not that they necessarily did in these players

It's also "been proven" that they can improve health. There's still a ton of unknowns with steroids, and I'd say it depends more on the person than the drug. There's people that it'll harm, and people that it'll help.

[ragecage]

132 OPS+ to Rice's 128 OPS+, which compares players to their league.

I dont think its really fair to compare a player in a time where Homers were abundant to a time when it was more a pitchers game like when Rice played, its really not fair to Rice, but I dont think he should be in anyway.

[RedsoxRockies]

It's also "been proven" that they can affect health. There's still a ton of unknowns with steroids, and I'd say it depends more on the person than the drug. There's people that it'll harm, and people that it'll help.

I just said that...

[HoustonGM]

I dont think its really fair to compare a player in a time where Homers were abundant to a time when it was more a pitchers game like when Rice played, its really not fair to Rice, but I dont think he should be in anyway.

What's that have to do with OPS+? OPS+ compares Juan Gonzalez's OPS to the average player in Gonzalez's league, and Jim Rice's OPS to the average player in Rice's league.

[ragecage]

It's also "been proven" that they can affect health. There's still a ton of unknowns with steroids, and I'd say it depends more on the person than the drug. There's people that it'll harm, and people that it'll help.

I heard it also depends on the dosage as well, steriods taken in moderation I heard could be quite helpful to someones health.

[HoustonGM]

I just said that...

Affect should be improve.