Franchise player pole

[metsguy234]

I consider Reyes one of the worse defensive shortstops in the game today. nothing about him is consistent.

also, I started this as a poll when there were so many responses to the last thread

I guess you just don't get to watch Jose Reyes play then. He's amazing, no doubt about it

[Jeffy25]

this has turned into a debate about defensive fielding. It appears that albert or hanley would be the player of choice. And it appears hanley is number one. who would you bat third and who would you bat fourth? without looking at numbers, simply by review over time from watching them play, hanley seems to be more of a power swinger, while albert is contact bat. but albert being much slower. Honestly, dependent on who i would have in an available cleanup role or available leadoff hitter, if i had both, albert fourth and hanley third.

[Swampdog]

I consider Reyes one of the worse defensive shortstops in the game today. nothing about him is consistent.

also, I started this as a poll when there were so many responses to the last thread

For clarification.....I said that Ramirez is the best offensive SS, with Reyes being the closest (offensively). I still say thats true.

I never addressed Reyes' defense.

[HoustonGM]

I guess you just don't get to watch Jose Reyes play then. He's amazing, no doubt about it

I've watched him play, and I know many people who have. The opinions tend to line up - ridiculous talent, but inconsistent and doesn't make the most of his abilities. And for what it's worth, the defensive stats tend to show a similar thing.

UZR:
2005: -3.2
2006: 5.5
2007: 8.7
2008: -1.5

FRAA:
2005: -7
2006: -11
2007: +15
2008: -2

+/-:
2005: -10
2006: +13
2007: +13
2008: +1


He's FAR from the "worst", as Jeffy51 contends, but he's also not "amazing." He certainly has the talent to be amazing, though, just like Ramirez. Whether or not either ever reaches that is a different question.

[Swampdog]

Pretty much agree. I would place Reyes below Ramirez on defense.

[HoustonGM]

Hardy, Rollins and Tejada, certainly. Theriot, no way. Izturis and Escobar.....yeah, maybe. Probably. So I guess thats 5. Nonetheless, I maintain that Ramirez is a little above average, since he is clearly better than several SS's in the league.

At any rate, he is no worse than average (I can concede average if absolutely necessary).

Using FRAA (not leaguewide, just amongst these players),

Tejada: +13
Hardy: +9
Izturis: +8
Rollins: +5
Ramirez: -1
Theriot: -1
Escobar: -2

The 2008 +/- leaders in the NL:

Jimmy Rollins +23
Yunel Escobar +21
JJ Hardy +19
Cesar Izturis +19
Jack Wilson +16
Christian Guzman +15
Omar Vizquel +9

That's 7 guys right there above Ramirez.

I'm still going by what I originally said - terrible in 2007, roughly average in 2008, and has the potential to be above-average or better in 2009 and beyond (and, in my opinion, will reach that potential).

[DarthJaker]

who picked Felix besides me?

[Swampdog]

Wilson and Vizquel only played half a season. Thats why they had less value than Ramirez. You could argue that Wilson was better (when he played), but Vizquel was not.

[HoustonGM]

+/- is a counting stat. Had they played more, they'd likely have had a higher score. I don't think it's out of the question that both were better than Ramirez. Multiple stats bear it out, and having not seen large samples of them playing, that's all I have to go on.

What, exactly, are you basing your evaluations on?

[Swampdog]

My rating system and win shares, mainly.

[HoustonGM]

I'd be interested in seeing your system and what goes into it.

[Jeffy25]

everytime I see highlight reels of reyes defense he seems to get to the ball, just throws it away. I am not trying to down play his talent, and i certainly don't watch him nightly, and have a friend who is in love with him...but I can't reallly back up my thoughts with evidence, just my impression is that he and ramirez have the potential to be great! but they don't seem to be settled yet. overall i would take pujols d over any of these guys. could he handle short still? well five years ago he definetly could...his d was one of his best characteristics when coming up through the minors. but in fear of injuries he has been moved from that position. He was a shortstop until he was 20, only 8 years ago

[Swampdog]

Would take a long time to explain, and I'm out of time. Based on range factors, primarily, and playing time. Of course, like all defensive stats, it isnt a perfect system.

[Coach Owens]

I picked Felix because I can see that once he works out a few kinks, he could be the best pitcher in baseball. Look at his stats using FanGraphs, I think the reason that his walk rate rose so much this season was because he was trying to get the ball to be lower in the zone (as he cut down on his HR/FB% by 5.1%, 15.0% in '07 to 9.9% in '08). Another reason his season wasn't as good as last year's was probably because he threw less of both his slider and his curveball which, after watching him actually pitch, are his best pitches. As long as he balances his pitch selection better and he doesn't focus on cutting down on homers given up, he could be much, much better.

[metsguy234]

I picked Felix because I can see that once he works out a few kinks, he could be the best pitcher in baseball. Look at his stats using FanGraphs, I think the reason that his walk rate rose so much this season was because he was trying to get the ball to be lower in the zone (as he cut down on his HR/FB% by 5.1%, 15.0% in '07 to 9.9% in '08). Another reason his season wasn't as good as last year's was probably because he threw less of both his slider and his curveball which, after watching him actually pitch, are his best pitches. As long as he balances his pitch selection better and he doesn't focus on cutting down on homers given up, he could be much, much better.

But I just can't see how you can pick him over Pujols or Ramirez...