After further review....
Ramirez is above averge, defensively. Maybe not a lot, but still above average.
Albert Pujols
Hanley Ramirez
David Wright
Felix Hernandez
Johan Santana
other. please specify
Valentine Lake Horror
After further review....
Ramirez is above averge, defensively. Maybe not a lot, but still above average.
παραλία
What exactly did you review?Originally Posted by Swampdog
Valentine Lake Horror
His records.
Song of Solomon 5:4
You can't quantify the area a fielder can cover.
]
o
FRAA, UZR, and DRS all have him at roughly 1 run below average in 2008. Estimating his +/- number (from 2005-2007, he was -43. In 2007, he was -37, and from 2006-2008, he was -40), +/- has him at roughly average as well in 2008.
╝+┼╣,►ΘΩδ
Apparently you did not review them very well...
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o
You'd be wrong, because, many people do it.
Song of Solomon 5:4
How? Do they follow them on the field and mark the area they can field from?
]
o
Sort of. It depends on what stat you're looking at.
+/- comes from video analysts analyzing every play over the course of the entire season. They measure location, speed, etc. of the ball, and whether or not the fielder makes the play, and, in simplest terms, if the fielder makes a play that another fielder did not make, he gets a +1, and if he misses a player that another fielder did make, he gets a -1. There's a lot of other things that go into it, like the recently added adjustment for outfield wall heights, but that's the description of the system in the simplest terms. And, of course, there's other systems as well. Most involve some sort of "zone" system, where the field is split into "zones". Zone Rating (found on ESPN, though apparently not currently working as its showing everybody as .000) is the simplest of the zone systems, as it just measures the percent of balls that in his zone that a fielder made plays on. THT has a more advanced "Revised Zone Rating", and also includes "Out of Zone" plays. FanGraphs recently added "Ultimate Zone Rating" to their player pages.
There's a ton of better defensive stats than fielding percentage. They're, obviously, not as advanced as hitting and pitching stats, and may never be, but using fielding percentage alone at this point is just incompetent. Sometimes, the systems do disagree on players, which is why, when possible, I prefer to look at as many defensive stats as are available and then use that to come to an "average" of a player's fielding.
Valentine Lake Horror
Ok then, compare Ramirez to his peers. After all, thats how "average" is decided. The NL has 16 teams, so lets assume 16 starting shortstops. A reasonable breakdown would be to characterize the best 5 as above average, the middle 6 as average, and the weaker 5 as below average. Which 5 shortstops, in 2008, were better than Ramirez?
This is somewhat of a clumsy system, I realize, but go with it anyway....
παραλία
Kind of...the defensive ratings still need a bit of work, but they are a step in the right direction.
Dreamweaver
I dont' think defensive metrics will ever by capable of fully telling the story of who is a good or bad fielder. I think they have their uses...but I just don't think they can paint the whole picture. I don't think fielding will ever be able to reach the point that pitching and hitting metrics have. The defensive metrics out there have their use...but I don't think I'll ever be able to fully buy into them.
That being said..using fielding percentage is just ridiculous.
My runs created per 27 posts (RC/27p) was 12.4 last year. I should've been MVP.
o
It depends entirely on what system you're looking at.
UZR sees J.J. Hardy, Jimmy Rollins, Cesar Izturis, Yunel Escobar, Miguel Tejada, and Ryan Theriot as better than Hanley, and that's only among "qualified" shortstops.
Valentine Lake Horror
Hardy, Rollins and Tejada, certainly. Theriot, no way. Izturis and Escobar.....yeah, maybe. Probably. So I guess thats 5. Nonetheless, I maintain that Ramirez is a little above average, since he is clearly better than several SS's in the league.
At any rate, he is no worse than average (I can concede average if absolutely necessary).
Registered User
I consider Reyes one of the worse defensive shortstops in the game today. nothing about him is consistent.
also, I started this as a poll when there were so many responses to the last thread
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