A little project I'm thinking of doing (HGM's Historical MVP/Cy Young Choices)

[metsguy234]

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=191910

Well, you have 100 years or so until we get to 2001-2004 in my awards

[HoustonGM]

Really, if you know you're going to choose anybody besides Bonds in those years, you shouldn't do this. That just disqualifies the entire process. An MVP/Cy Young project that gives no awards to Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Pedro Martinez really just shouldn't exist.

[boomboom]

HGM, no offense, but I could probably make these picks better then you. Pitchers shouldn't win MVPs unless they go like 100-0, dude.

Metsguy, you need to buy some baseball books and actually read them. I can't believe you don't understand how great Gehrig was. He was one of the greatest players to ever play this game. If it wasn't for Ruth, Gehrig would be the best of his generation. If he didn't get sick, he would have put up some amazing counting stats, even without the counting stats, he up some numbers that will be hard to beat. He was very consistant, and played over 2100 games in a row. The Iron Man is one of the best players of all time. You could even put him in the top 5 of alltime players. That is how good he was. He isn't a top 5 1st baseman, he is the best one.

[metsguy234]

Really, if you know you're going to choose anybody besides Bonds in those years, you shouldn't do this. That just disqualifies the entire process. An MVP/Cy Young project that gives no awards to Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Pedro Martinez really just shouldn't exist.

Fine, if you're gonna be such a baby about it, I'll take a steroids-neutral standpoint.

[HoustonGM]

Good luck with that.

FWII, I'm not being a "baby" about it, but you let your evaluation of players be affected too much by outside matters...like with Lou Gehrig as boomboom said above.

[ragecage]

Fine, if you're gonna be such a baby about it, I'll take a steroids-neutral standpoint.

get your junk out of here, youre messing up a fine thread.

[TheNamelessPoet]

Really, if you know you're going to choose anybody besides Bonds in those years, you shouldn't do this. That just disqualifies the entire process. An MVP/Cy Young project that gives no awards to Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Pedro Martinez really just shouldn't exist.

i tend to agree on that one... if you incorporate feelings into it it mess's things up.
Also you have to look at the players alone. For example when you talk about MVP the BBWAA takes into account where the team finished. if say pujols and howard put up exactly the same #'s but pujols hit 60 points higher BA and they came in 3rd while philly won the ws... they would give it to howard when Pujols was the better player... They would forget the BA (which is not the only thing) and stellar defense, ad vote Howard... even tho if you inserted Pujols into that lineup instead of howard he may have had even better #'s.

[TheNamelessPoet]

Metsguy, you need to buy some baseball books and actually read them. I can't believe you don't understand how great Gehrig was. He was one of the greatest players to ever play this game. If it wasn't for Ruth, Gehrig would be the best of his generation. If he didn't get sick, he would have put up some amazing counting stats, even without the counting stats, he up some numbers that will be hard to beat. He was very consistant, and played over 2100 games in a row. The Iron Man is one of the best players of all time. You could even put him in the top 5 of alltime players. That is how good he was. He isn't a top 5 1st baseman, he is the best one.

Agreed... if it wasnt for Ruth... everyone would have talked about Gehrig

[ragecage]

Also to point out, Ruth didnt win all those World Series titles on his own, Lou was a HUGE part of the early Yankee success.

[HoustonGM]

1974:

AL MVP: Reggie Jackson
NL MVP: Joe Morgan
AL Cy: Fergie Jenkins
NL Cy: Phil Niekro

Again, no agreements.

In the AL, Jeff Burroughs won the MVP, for a legitimately good season. However, I have both Rod Carew and Reggie Jackson over him, and I almost gave the award to Carew, but deferred to Reggie's superior offensive numbers. Bobby Grich also had another underrated, unheralded season.

I think the BBWAA NL MVP voters got it drastically wrong. They awarded the MVP to Steve Garvey who had a solid season but nothing spectacular. Furthermore, Lou Brock placed in second on the strength of his record-breaking stolen bases. Mike Marshall also received a first place vote. I have all three of those players behind a gaggle of other guys - Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, Jimmy Wynn, Mike Schmidt, Willie Stargell, Reggie Smith, Ralph Garr, and more. Joe Morgan claims his 3rd consecutive HGM MVP award, providing fantastic offense, baserunning, and defense from the second base position.

The AL Cy Young vote with the BBWAA was a close race between Catfish Hunter and Fergie Jenkins. I ended up going with the 2nd place finisher, Jenkins. My choice actually came down to him and Gaylord Perry, who received just one first place vote and 8 total points from the BBWAA. Perry led the league with a 144 ERA+ in 322 innings. Jenkins trailed significantly in ERA+ at 126, but he put up fantastic peripherals, including a fantastic strikeout to walk ratio of 5. He comes out ahead of the pack in advanced metrics like Win Probability Added and WARP, and those swayed me to give him the award over Perry.

The NL BBWAA Cy Young went to Mike Marshall, who came out of the bullpen in a record 106 games, tossing 208 innings. He had a very good season, but I can't look over Phil Niekro's league-leading innings and 2nd place ERA+ of 159, trailing only Buzz Capra who pitched nearly 100 fewer innings.

[RedsoxRockies]

I don't know why he thinks I'd care, as long as he kept it in one thread like I'm doing.

I might suffer an aneurysm when he picks anybody over Barry Bonds in the 2001-2004 period, though.

Lol! I am sure it will be scary when he is done. So far it is sorta ok, but just wait, and Hank Aaron will have 10 MVPs and Bonds None. Heck, I would not be surprised if he gave ****ing Beltran or Damon and MVP

[HoustonGM]

Lol! I am sure it will be scary when he is done. So far it is sorta ok, but just wait, and Hank Aaron will have 10 MVPs and Bonds None. Heck, I would not be surprised if he gave ****ing Beltran or Damon and MVP

Carlos Beltran has a very legitimate MVP case in 2006.

Just sayin'.

[RedsoxRockies]

Carlos Beltran has a very legitimate MVP case in 2006.

Just sayin'.

That is true, I was just throwing names. Maybe someone like Jay Bell or Jesse Orsoco instead...

[HoustonGM]

That is true, I was just throwing names. Maybe someone like Jay Bell or Jesse Orsoco instead...

That's Hall of Famer Jesse Orosco to you!

[HoustonGM]

1973:

AL MVP: Reggie Jackson
NL MVP: Joe Morgan
AL Cy: Jim Palmer
NL Cy: Tom Seaver

Disagreed only on the NL MVP. Joe Morgan, again, put up a ridiculously valuable season. He was really quite some player at his peak. He lost out in the BBWAA MVP voting to teammate Pete Rose, who had a very good season, but Joe Morgan bested him in most categories, all while playing second to Pete's left field. Willie Stargell also had a very noteworthy season.

For the AL MVP, I almost gave it to Bert Blyleven, who beat Palmer out by 2 points in ERA+ and had a higher innings total, while also posting a ridiculous WARP of 14. However, one factor that often is overlooked in pitcher evaluation is the unearned run. Now, obviously, not all unearned runs are the fault of the pitcher. However, sometimes, they are. If an error extends an inning, every run after that in the inning is counted as unearned. However, if the pitcher goes on to get hammered, part (or even all) of the blame for those unearned runs has to go to him. Blyleven gave up 18 unearned runs to Palmer's 7, leading to Palmer besting him in RA+ (Run Average Plus, similar to ERA+ except including all runs allowed). The higher RA+ leads to Palmer narrowly edging Blyleven in VORP.