Come on man, I'm not even doing my "Say things that I don't believe are even remotely true to get attention" thing here: there are probably about 15 better candidates for that award.Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Song of Solomon 5:4
Come on man, I'm not even doing my "Say things that I don't believe are even remotely true to get attention" thing here: there are probably about 15 better candidates for that award.
o
You just fail to understand that just because Zoilo Versalles is a relative no-name in baseball history, with a pretty funny sounding name to begin with, doesn't mean he's incapable of having a very good season. I bet you haven't even looked at the full group of players in the 1965 American League, let alone analyzed his numbers relative to position, his defense, etc. and you're just basing this on...well...nothing except for his name.
E=I*R
eh, just ignore him Houston. We all know that he's just a troll, albeit a "good" one.
I wouldn't dignify his posts with a reply (and I won't).
You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann
Song of Solomon 5:4
No, I actually looked at them somewhere near the beginning of this thread (I brought him up at one point)
And without further ado, here are 15 people (in no specific order) who deserved that MVP more than Mr. Versailles
1. Tony Oliva
2. Brooks Robinson
3. Jimmie Hall
4. Carl Yastrzemski
5. Tom Tresh
6. Willie Horton
7. Rocky Colavito
8. Tony Conigliaro
9. Fred Whitfield
10. Mudcat Grant
11. Eddie Fisher
12. Stu Miller
13. Harmon Killebrew
14. Frank Howard
15. Mel Stottlemyre
o
Judging from that list full of corner players and poor defenders, I highly doubt you incorporated offense relative to position, as well as defense, and baserunning.
So, I'll go with ohms suggestion on this.
o
1964:
AL MVP: Brooks Robinson
NL MVP: Willie Mays
AL Cy: Dean Chance
NL Cy: Don Drysdale
MLB Cy: Dean Chance
Mickey Mantle really trounced the league in offense this year, but Robinson had a gigantic edge in defensive value while also putting up numbers relative to his position close to Mantle's, so I think the BBWAA got this one right.
Over in the NL though, they seemed to go a bit overboard with the "good offensive third basemen with good defense" mantra, while ignoring Willie Mays and his awesome offense and incredible center field defense. Mays nabs his second consecutive HGM MVP.
They got the Cy Young award right with Dean Chance. In the NL, Sandy Koufax put up an injury-shortened year that was quite excellent, but teammate Don Drysdale almost matched him in quality while throwing 100 more innings, earning himself the HGM NL Cy Young.
o
1963:
AL MVP: Bob Allison
NL MVP: Hank Aaron
AL Cy: Gary Peters
NL Cy: Sandy Koufax
MLB Cy: Sandy Koufax
Disagreements happened on both the MVP awards. The BBWAA awarded Yankee catcher Elston Howard the AL MVP award, and he was a very deserving candidate. After much deliberation, I decided upon Bob Allison, right fielder of the Twins. Allison led the league with a 151 OPS+ and was an excellent fielder, the combination of which, I believe, beats out Howard's advantage as a catcher.
In the NL, the BBWAA gave the award to Sandy Koufax. However, 1963 was the year that Koufax benefited most from his home park, and while he was more than deserving of the Cy Young, Hank Aaron and Willie Mays were forces to be reckoned with for the MVP. Hank Aaron's baserunning advantage and slight offensive advantage trumped the advantage Mays has as a center fielder, although the two were ridiculously close.
BBWAA Rookie of the Year Gary Peters received my AL Cy Young award, putting up a 149 ERA+ in 243 innings.
o
1962:
AL MVP: Mickey Mantle
NL MVP: Willie Mays
AL Cy: Whitey Ford
NL Cy: Bob Purkey
MLB Cy: Bob Purkey
The AL MVP was a pretty easy call, although Brooks Robinson gave Mickey Mantle a run for his money. The NL, though, was extremely tough. Of course, the BBWAA pick was absolutely silly, as Maury Wills won it thanks to his 104 stolen bases, despite sucking at everything else. The NL at this time period had three of the greatest players to ever step into a batter's box in Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and Frank Robinson, and in 1962, they were all extraordinarily close in value. The positional and defensive difference between them, though, led me to give this one to Mays after a lot of deliberating.
Don Drysdale won the BBWAA Cy Young award, but back then, they didn't do much adjusting, if any, for park factors, which really drops Drysdale down. Bob Purkey of the Reds was tied for 2nd in ERA+ while finishing 2nd behind Drysdale in innings, earning him the NL Cy Young award from me, and also the Major League one, as he beat out AL winner Whitey Ford. It was extremely close between Ford and Jim Kaat. It could really be decided by a coin flip.
o
1961:
AL MVP: Mickey Mantle
NL MVP: Frank Robinson
AL Cy: Whitey Ford
NL Cy: Warren Spahn
MLB Cy: Whitey Ford
1961 was the year that Roger Maris broke Babe Ruth's home run record, so it's easy to see why he was given the MVP award. However, in terms of value, teammate Mickey Mantle trounced him. Mantle played center field, and out-OPS'd him by nearly 150 points. Norm Cash also had a ridiculously good season, but Mantle beats him out on positional differences.
The NL MVP award was once again an incredibly tough decision. The triumvirate of Robinson, Mays, and Aaron, was truly astounding. Now, you all probably know that I hate using teammate performance in player evaluation. However, I have said before that I think it's acceptable to use it as a tie-breaker. All the way back in 1961, I finally have come across a situation in which using the importance of one's season, as measured by team performance in the standings, is necessary to separate the players, and Robinson's performance on the pennant-winning Reds puts him ahead of Aaron and Mays for this award.
The BBWAA awarded the Cy Young to Whitey Ford, and I agree with that. For my NL Cy Young, 40 year old Warren Spahn nabs it with his 21-13 performance, posting a 123 ERA+ in 262.2 innings.
o
1960:
AL MVP: Mickey Mantle
NL MVP: Willie Mays
AL Cy: Jim Bunning
NL Cy: Don Drysdale
MLB Cy: Don Drysdale
Disagreements all over here. Roger Maris won the BBWAA AL MVP award, again narrowly edging out Mantle. This year, though, it was legitimately very close between the two, but I give the award to Mantle because, as has been the case the past few years, his offense from center field is more valuable than that of similar offense from a corner outfielder.
The NL MVP was somehow awarded to Dick Groat, with Groat's infield mate Don Hoak picking up some first place consideration, despite Ernie Banks having a phenomenally better season and playing the same position. However, my pick goes to third place finisher, Willie Mays, who seems to have really been unappreciated in his years when it comes to the MVP voting. It was another very close year between the three star outfielders, with Ernie Banks and Eddie Mathews added to the mix, as well.
The BBWAA gave the Cy Young to Vern Law, another Pittsburgh Pirate. I guess they really placed a heavy premium on team performance! Anyway, my AL choice is Jim Bunning, who led the league in ERA+ while placing 4th in innings. My NL (and MLB) choice goes to Don Drysdale, making up for me taking away his 1962 award.
o
1959:
AL MVP: Mickey Mantle
NL MVP: Ernie Banks
AL Cy: Hoyt Wilhelm
NL Cy: Sam Jones
MLB Cy: Hoyt Wilhelm
More disagreements! The MVP voters really had a middle-infield fetish around this time period, as Nellie Fox won the award, with Luis Aparicio coming in second and picking up first place votes. Mantle, who inexplicably placed 17th, was tied for the league lead with Al Kaline in OPS+ with 151, and, of course, played center field. Mantle wins his 4th consecutive HGM MVP award, joining Joe Morgan and Barry Bonds (twice) as the only players to accomplish that feat so far. Ernie Banks in the NL I agreed with, but Eddie Matthews and Hank Aaron both put up ridiculously awesome seasons as well.
The BBWAA Cy Young was awarded to Early Wynn. Sam Jones got two votes, even though he compiled more innings with a lower ERA...winning just 21 to Wynn's 22 games did him in! Jones, who shuttled between the rotation and the pen, making 15 appearances in relief, gets my NL pick. In the AL, Hoyt Wilhelm, in his last full season as a starting pitcher, put up an awesome 173 ERA+. Despite a lack of innings compared to some other starters, the huge gap in quality gives him both the AL and the MLB award.
o
1958:
AL MVP: Mickey Mantle
NL MVP: Willie Mays
AL Cy: Frank Lary
NL Cy: Warren Spahn
MLB Cy: Frank Lary
Disagreed everywhere here. Mantle was again snubbed by the voters, placing 5th in the MVP voting and not receiving a single first place vote. Boston right fielder Jackie Jensen won the award, despite worse offense AND defense. Mantle now becomes the first player to ever win 5 consecutive HGM MVP's.
In the NL, Ernie Banks was given the award by the BBWAA, and I can't really argue it, but I think Willie Mays was just ever-so-slightly ahead. Mays was a better center fielder than Banks was a shortstop, and while Banks' offense was better in comparison to his position than Mays's was, the defensive edge makes me give this to Mays.
Bob Turley was awarded the Cy Young award, and also finished a close 2nd to Jensen in the AL MVP voting. I'm not seeing it. Turley posted a 119 ERA+ in 245 innings, a very good season. My pick, Frank Lary, despite a mediocre 16-15 record, recorded a 139 ERA+ in 260 innings, a large advantage. Warren Spahn got his second NL Cy Young, but Lary beats him out for the MLB award.
o
1957:
AL MVP: Mickey Mantle
NL MVP: Willie Mays
AL Cy: Jim Bunning
NL Cy: Warren Spahn
MLB Cy: Warren Spahn
The BBWAA finally gave Mickey Mantle a deserved MVP award, and he's now won a record 6 consecutive HGM MVP's. Ted Williams gave him a run for his money, but Mantle's advantage in playing time, position, and huge advantage on defense, means he deserved this one.
Hank Aaron won the BBWAA NL MVP, and, as with every year, he had a great season. I've got Mays very slightly ahead of him, on the basis of defense, once again.
I think the BBWAA got the Warren Spahn selection correct. For the AL, I gave it to Jim Bunning.
o
1956:
AL MVP: Mickey Mantle
NL MVP: Duke Snider
AL Cy: Early Wynn
NL Cy: Don Newcombe
MLB Cy: Early Wynn
I agreed on Mantle as he nabs his 7th consecutive HGM MVP, a truly remarkable run. In the NL, the BBWAA gave the MVP to pitcher Don Newcombe, but I don't see Newcombe's season as truly remarkable enough to warrant an MVP. Duke Snider and Willie Mays topped the league, with Snider slightly ahead on offense, giving him the award.
The BBWAA gave the MLB Cy Young to Don Newcombe. While I do think he was the best pitcher in the National League, I think my pick for AL Cy Young, Early Wynn, trumps him. 27 wins will lead to you being overvalued, even if it's just slightly, though.
I've now gone through all the years in which the BBWAA awarded Cy Young's. I will continue to award Cy Young's for previous years. However, before I move on to 1955, I'm going to run some comparisons between my choices and the BBWAA picks. Look for that later on tonight, as I'm about to head out.
Song of Solomon 5:4
The 1st place finisher Craig Swan? Craig Swan, according to B-R.com has never even gotten a Cy vote, much less won the award.
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