Stop moving everything to OiLF...

[HoustonGM]

I think that where we're not seeing eye to eye on this is simple enough. In my view, everything that is in OiLF is "junk"...

Stuff like WHat did you get for grades?, most of the music threads, I'm really anxious, etc. would go in Ejections under what I'm saying. I don't view any of that as "junk."

[ohms_law]

Yea, that's the problem... I do. Their all decidedly more interesting then "countdown" threads or whatever (and, as you can see, I participate as well), but their all decidedly Off Topic.

...alternatively, we could just scrap OiLF as a good experiment, and simply no longer allow those threads/posts that we agree are truly "junk".

[metsguy234]

Yea, that's the problem... I do. Their all decidedly more interesting then "countdown" threads or whatever (and, as you can see, I participate as well), but their all decidedly Off Topic.

...alternatively, we could just scrap OiLF as a good experiment, and simply no longer allow those threads/posts that we agree are truly "junk".

Or how about we come to a consensus on what is "junk" and what isn't. I agree with what HGM considers junk in this case, and I don't agree with labeling music threads etc. as "junk".

[ohms_law]

Well, obviously. Every forum that I've ever been on, "music" is OT though. Most have Politics, religion, and news as either a separate forum or in OT, and that's the original stated intent behind Ejections.

You think music is important, I get that. It is, as well. It's not politics, religion, or news, though.

[HoustonGM]

I think you might bet taking Clay's original "Ejections introduction" a bit too literally. Just because he neglected to mention every category of topics outside of politics/religion doesn't mean that he didn't think anything else belongs.

If it stays as is, I do think that a name and description change should be in order. At any rate, this:

...alternatively, we could just scrap OiLF as a good experiment, and simply no longer allow those threads/posts that we agree are truly "junk".

I wouldn't be against in the least bit.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

I'll restate what I've said about this before, and what almost everyone else has also said.

Ejections should be for thoughtful, coherent discussion, regardless of topic. If it's a good discussion about music, politics, religion, science, current issues, need-for-advice or anything else (aside from sports and video games because they have their own sections) it should be in ejections. Just because the topic isn't new or politics doesn't mean it isn't important or that a good discussion can't be had.

OiLF should be for post-padding, forum games and junk. Also anything that degenerates from a good discussion into a bunch of people babbling about nothing should be moved here. OiLF should be a junk drawer and nothing more. Maybe some people don't like the idea of a pure junk drawer, but if that's what it takes to separate the crap from the good stuff then so be it. As it is right now we essentially have two of the same forum.

Normally I'd like the idea of simply cracking down on the junk stuff, but I don't think it would work. OiLF is working, it's just a matter of defining it the way the majority of users want it. If you simply scrap OiLF and try to crack down on the junk, the junk will still sift into the good stuff and you'll really just end up making people mad for deleting their dumb fun threads.

[HoustonGM]

Yeah, good points. Your description sums up what my original intent behind the suggestion was.

[ohms_law]

I understand the point that both of you are making. My issue with that is the definition of "thoughtful, coherent discussion, regardless of topic". I can't think of a more subjective definition if I tried, and there's simply no way that there will ever be general agreement on what's what. As long as the topics are defined, then that subjectivity really doesn't exist, and as I mentioned above people then have little reason to complain about "their thread" being moved to a backwater dumping ground.

I'm not at all against changing the descriptions of the forums (I like the names, though). As a matter of fact, if it were up to me, OiLF would be a subforum under Ejections rather then sitting along side of it...

What I keep coming back to though is the basic point that if the only thing that OiLF is for is "post-padding, forum games and junk", then the forum and the threads that it contains shouldn't exist at all. That sort of forums serves no useful function other then as a lightning rod for "acceptable" misbehavior.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

I'm not at all against changing the descriptions of the forums (I like the names, though). As a matter of fact, if it were up to me, OiLF would be a subforum under Ejections rather then sitting along side of it...

I do like both of these ideas, but only changing the description once we have a clear consensus of what's going on with them.

What I keep coming back to though is the basic point that if the only thing that OiLF is for is "post-padding, forum games and junk", then the forum and the threads that it contains shouldn't exist at all. That sort of forums serves no useful function other then as a lightning rod for "acceptable" misbehavior.

Ideally they wouldn't. However this is the internet and with so many different personalities and things to find "acceptable misbehavior" is going to happen regardless, so it's better to stuff it off out of the way where it isn't bogging down intelligent discussion.

My issue with that is the definition of "thoughtful, coherent discussion, regardless of topic". I can't think of a more subjective definition if I tried, and there's simply no way that there will ever be general agreement on what's what. As long as the topics are defined, then that subjectivity really doesn't exist, and as I mentioned above people then have little reason to complain about "their thread" being moved to a backwater dumping ground.

It may be subjective, but a general agreement can be reached, just not a specific one. It's not too difficult to tell what threads actually have something to them and which ones don't. And if the majority of people have a problem with a bad thread being in a good place or vice versa, you'll hear about it and it'll get moved (hopefully). The problem we're having isn't really threads that belong in OiLF being in Ejections, it's threads that belong in Ejections being in OiLF, so I can't say I see why the way HGM and I are describing it is a problem. However if you want a less subjective description why not something like "Talk about music, politics, religion, TV, ask for advice, and more!" and for OiLF "Forum Games and anything that doesn't fit elsewhere." Those seem like pretty good, non-subjective descriptions to me.

[ohms_law]

It may be subjective, but a general agreement can be reached

Well, that's exactly what we're debating right now...


The main thing that I'm worried about is being placed in a position where I'm personally vulnerable to charges of "favoritism", along with HGM and any other moderators (I really don't need any stress for volunteering to do this "job", and I think both HGM and myself take enough flack already). If there's a firm topic based split between the two forums, then that should pretty much goes away. I don't want to "hear about" anything really, thank you very much...
Essentially, what I'm saying is that this:

it's threads that belong in Ejections being in OiLF

is likely to be 10x worse based on what is being proposed. Maybe not, but creating a specific "useless threads" only type forum gives me the willies.

Additionally, Ejections was specifically started due to "politics and religion" threads, which will always be controversial. By moving the less controversial, more "fun" threads (including music, television, movies, birthdays, etc...) to OiLF, we have one "serious" Off Topic forum, and one "fun" Off Topic forum. I really don't see what the problem with that is. I see many issues with a real "useless threads" forum, not least of which is telling all of the thread authors for the threads that remain in OiLF that their threads are considered to be useless.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

Then define Ejections as something like "Music, politics, religion, current events, advice, TV, movies and (almost) anything else you want!" and OiLF as "Forum Games and anything that doesn't fit somewhere else".

Honestly ohms, it just seems like you're getting hung up on the negative connotation the terminology I'm using contains. No offense intended.

[ohms_law]

it just seems like you're getting hung up on the negative connotation the terminology I'm using contains.

If you think I'm getting hung up on it, just wait... I'm not even personally involved in this really. When people who post threads have their threads moved to OiLF, then you'll start really seeing people getting "hung up" on the negative connotations.
I'm surprised that I'm the only one who sees that as a probable issue, honestly.

Anyway, it seems to me that the main sticking point is music and movies (and TV). When I was younger all of those things were vastly more important to me as well, so I'm not completely surprised at that. The only reason that they fit into the "fun" OT section is because all of those topics are entertainment. It seems obvious to me to put those topics in with the other entertainment topics, and it seems unnatural to place them with the more "serious" politics and religion threads. However, as I said above, if people (mostly HGM, since he'll be doing the work involved) feel strongly enough about it then it wouldn't bother me at all. Do it!
I'm just slightly worried, is all.

[RedsoxRockies]

I have not had a single thread moved to OiLF since it was formed. I am a good little forumer. But really, I feel Music discussions can stay in either forum, depending on what type they are. The "What are you Listening to" thread would stay in OiLF, but like my Guitar Players thread or All out War's thread on his new Bass, or discussions on music can go in Ejections. Lists and updatey thingies can go in OiLF. Personally, I do not care if they are in one or the other, as it seems that they both get equal attention, and in fact, OiLF gets more. I think that things should stay as they are, except threads don't get moved FROM ejections to OiLF unless they are genuine crapola. Because no one really seems to mind except for metsguy that we are using OiLF more. AND it even has a better name . That is my case.

[boomboom]

Ohms

I suggest that you keep the forums alone. There doesn't need to have any threads moved from general non-Sports Mogul forums. You are making too much work for yourself, and you are making a few people upset. I don't know why you feel you need to move these threads around. For Baseball Mogul forums, I totally understand moving threads if they are not in the correct place. For ejections and OILF, it doesn't make sense, both forums are junk forums that have nothing to do with Baseball, or Football Mogul.

[Rongar]

In a similar vein, why was fantasy baseball moved to sports talk as opposed to the sports games?

If the games sections were moved from the basement, I'm sure more people would appropriately post their threads in that section

I agree...