Yankees on verge of signing Manny Ramirez?

[HoustonGM]

I'm just saying. You can't go up 3-0 and lose though.

Yes, you can. Teams go on 3 game winning streaks followed by 4 game losing streaks all the time. Yes, this particular instance came in the playoffs, all against one team, so it was magnified, more intensely scrutinized, etc. But that doesn't mean that the team just up and decided "Oh, jeez, we just won 3 games, we feel such immense pressure to win a 4th that we're going to suck so much and lose 4 consecutive games." What it likely means was that the Yankees and Red Sox were both very evenly matched teams, and the luck just broke in favor of the Red Sox over the course of the final 4 games.

[5DiMaggio]

Yes, you can. Teams go on 3 game winning streaks followed by 4 game losing streaks all the time. Yes, this particular instance came in the playoffs, all against one team, so it was magnified, more intensely scrutinized, etc. But that doesn't mean that the team just up and decided "Oh, jeez, we just won 3 games, we feel such immense pressure to win a 4th that we're going to suck so much and lose 4 consecutive games." What it likely means was that the Yankees and Red Sox were both very evenly matched teams, and the luck just broke in favor of the Red Sox over the course of the final 4 games.

But, we were in the lead late and then our bullpen blew it we've should've won that series. They had a dramatic rally against our bullpen which is unacceptable IMO

[HoustonGM]

But, we were in the lead late and then our bullpen blew it we've should've won that series. They had a dramatic rally against our bullpen which is unacceptable IMO

Unacceptable, terrible, horrible, crappy, bad, etc. Sure.

Mariano Rivera is/was a world-class closer, the best ever, plenty used to pitching in 9th inning pressure packed ball games. He has a 0.77 ERA in 117.1 postseason innings. Sorry, but this is not a guy that dies under pressure.

Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS, 9th inning, he was off his game, for whatever reason, very likely just bad luck. He walked the first batter, who was replaced by a pinch runner, who stole a base, and then a single knocked the guy in. This does not mean that the pressure was bogging him down and he couldn't find the plate. It just means that he had a bad inning, like every pitcher in the history of baseball has had.

[5DiMaggio]

Unacceptable, terrible, horrible, crappy, bad, etc. Sure.

Mariano Rivera is/was a world-class closer, the best ever, plenty used to pitching in 9th inning pressure packed ball games. He has a 0.77 ERA in 117.1 postseason innings. Sorry, but this is not a guy that dies under pressure.

Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS, 9th inning, he was off his game, for whatever reason, very likely just bad luck. He walked the first batter, who was replaced by a pinch runner, who stole a base, and then a single knocked the guy in. This does not mean that the pressure was bogging him down and he couldn't find the plate. It just means that he had a bad inning, like every pitcher in the history of baseball has had.

Alright, I see where your coming from and respect your point of view, I just think we should have won one of the next 3 games though. I don't think you can change my opinion.

[HoustonGM]

Alright, I see where your coming from and respect your point of view, I just think we should have won one of the next 3 games though. I don't think you can change my opinion.

Of course not. You're a Yankee fan. Of course you think the Yankees should have won one of the next three games. But, even so, it doesn't mean the pressure did them in and they choked.

[5DiMaggio]

Of course not. You're a Yankee fan. Of course you think the Yankees should have won one of the next three games. But, even so, it doesn't mean the pressure did them in and they choked.

Yeah, still, I don't think the pressure got to them, I just don't think they played to the level they were capable. Wow, you just changed my opinion, they didn't choke....I hate you lol

[dickay]

Of course not. You're a Yankee fan. Of course you think the Yankees should have won one of the next three games. But, even so, it doesn't mean the pressure did them in and they choked.

There's reasons why MLB teams have never blown a 3-0 lead prior or since. Anyhow, we'll yield to your hypothesis that them losing didn't necessarily have to do with pressure or 'choking'. However, to be fully honest you'd have to do the same, and agree that pressure and 'choking' may have been a big part of it. It doesn't matter what fan you are a team of to have either opinion.

Me personally........I can't see how pressure didn't have a big part of it. As the Sox closed in, the Yanks tightened up.

[reflections]

manny and damon in the outfield. maybe they can get Mike Greenwell to come and DH a bit.

[HoustonGM]

There's reasons why MLB teams have never blown a 3-0 lead prior or since.

Of course there is. The chances of it happening are slim.

Anyhow, we'll yield to your hypothesis that them losing didn't necessarily have to do with pressure or 'choking'. However, to be fully honest you'd have to do the same, and agree that pressure and 'choking' may have been a big part of it. It doesn't matter what fan you are a team of to have either opinion.

I don't HAVE to. While I will certainly admit that there may be individual players that may have their on-field performance affected by pressure, I cannot buy that an entire team of full-grown professional baseball players collectively wilt under pressure, and I certainly cannot buy that the greatest closer in the history of the game who has allowed a total of 10 earned runs in 117 postseason innings just happened to be in a situation he's been in tons of times before and THEN the pressure affected him and he screwed up, as opposed to him having just screwed up because every single baseball player in history have has an inning where they screwed up due to sheer luck.

Me personally........I can't see how pressure didn't have a big part of it. As the Sox closed in, the Yanks tightened up.

It's easy to apply this sort of explanation after the fact, obviously.

[dickay]

While I will certainly admit that there may be individual players that may have their on-field performance affected by pressure

Thank you.

A whole team doesn't have to be affected to cause enough of a disruption to lead to a loss.

[HoustonGM]

Thank you.

A whole team doesn't have to be affected to cause enough of a disruption to lead to a loss.

If it's the pressure that caused 4 straight losses rather than, you know, just simply losing...it'd have to take a huge chunk of players on that losing team to be negatively affected.

[metsguy234]

If it's the pressure that caused 4 straight losses rather than, you know, just simply losing...it'd have to take a huge chunk of players on that losing team to be negatively affected.

And I think it's evident that a huge chunk of players on the losing team were negatively affected by pressure.

This was the ALCS, against their most hated rivals, and their rivals were getting closer and closer to winning. How could that pressure not mess them up?

[HoustonGM]

And I think it's evident that a huge chunk of players on the losing team were negatively affected by pressure.

If it's evident, prove it.

This was the ALCS, against their most hated rivals, and their rivals were getting closer and closer to winning. How could that pressure not mess them up?

Because they're a team of full-grown men, professional baseball players, players that have been on many winning teams in both the regular season and the playoffs...they've spent their lives playing games under pressure. They're not just some weak-willed people who suck when they have to win.

Game 4 turned in that 9th inning where Rivera walked Millar, Roberts stole second, and Mueller drove him in. Rivera is pretty much the epitome of a guy that doesn't crack under pressure. Explanation for this...**** happens. The game ended on David Ortiz hitting a home run off Paul Quantrill. Great slugger vs. crappy middle reliever...gee...whose going to win that battle?

Game 5 was a 14 inning game. This, again, demonstrates what I said earlier about how the two teams were very evenly matched. And it ended when...gee....the Yankees had Esteban Loaiza on the mound...a guy with a 5.70 ERA in 183 regular season innings...an 8.50 ERA in 43 innings while playing for the Yankees. Was it really "pressure" that made the Yankees lose this game, or was is that...Esteban Loaiza sucks?

Game 6 was yet another close game 4-2. The Yankees threw Jon Lieber, a mediocre pitcher who...pitched a mediocre game, allowing 4 runs in 7.1 innings. The Red Sox threw Curt Schilling, who would go on to place 2nd in the the AL Cy Young voting. Pressure, or Curt Schilling being amazing and Jon Lieber being mediocre?

Game 7 was a 10-3 blowout. The Yankees started Kevin Brown, a mediocre starting pitcher who had pitched poorly in his first start of the series, and then proceeded, once again, to pitch poorly. Pressure, or simply the fact that Kevin Brown just wasn't that good anymore? Brown was relieved by Javier Vazquez, another mediocre pitcher.


Looking more closely at the series, I'm known even more certain in my belief that pressure had next to nothing to do with it. The Yankees and Red Sox were two evenly matched teams. The Yankees lost simply because they had mediocre or terrible pitchers pitching in a key spots like the 14th inning of a tie game while the Red Sox countered with fantastic hitters. Fantastic hitters winning out over the shitty pitchers has nothing to do with pressure and everything to do with the fact that the pitchers sucked and the hitters were good.

[dickay]

And I think it's evident that a huge chunk of players on the losing team were negatively affected by pressure.

This was the ALCS, against their most hated rivals, and their rivals were getting closer and closer to winning. How could that pressure not mess them up?

Might as well just leave it alone mets. The guy who usually argues 'against' luck is now going to put this whole issue to the tarot cards when it suits his narrow sighted argument.

[HoustonGM]

Might as well just leave it alone mets. The guy who usually argues 'against' luck is now going to put this whole issue to the tarot cards when it suits his narrow sighted argument.

When the hell do I of all people argue against "luck"? Maybe you have me confused with someone else. I'm the guy that ascribes a lot of happenings in baseball TO luck, rather than trying to find some other explanation for something that can simply be described by luck, randomness, regression to the mean, small sample size, etc.

And furthermore, after examining the series in more detail, I'm backing off of my claim that the Yankees lost simply due to the luck breaking in favor of the Red Sox. As I described above, the Yankees lost the series because the two teams were evenly matched, and in the key spots in the final 4 games, the Yankees had crappy pitchers playing while the Red Sox had good hitters playing. Really, Game 4 is the only one that I'd toss up to luck, because Mariano Rivera just simply had a bad 9th inning, and like I said, that's not something he does often, and he's not a guy that cracks under pressure.