Ranking the top pitchers since the 1940's

[RedsoxRockies]

do i spank myself since I said Clemens was under .500???

Good point, good point....

[metsguy234]

Oh, I forgot! You're totally right. Steroids are the reason Alex Sanchez is at the top of the all-time leaderboards in a ton of categories.

Steroids were the reason he made the big leagues at all.

[EVEN11323]

And you know that how?

[TheNamelessPoet]

Anyway back to topic on hand here

would you guys put eckersly anywhere close to the top 10?

[RedsoxRockies]

Steroids were the reason he made the big leagues at all.

No, he did not use them until the late 90's. You can tell by looking at his baseball cards. And Poet, no, Eck may be in the top 50ish, but not the top ten.

[HoustonGM]

Anyway back to topic on hand here

would you guys put eckersly anywhere close to the top 10?

No.

No, he did not use them until the late 90's.

He was talking about Alex Sanchez with that post, but EVEN11323's question remains. How does he know?

[RedsoxRockies]

No.


He was talking about Alex Sanchez with that post, but EVEN11323's question remains. How does he know?

Yea, Metsguy, did you interview him?

[metsguy234]

Because these guys can't actually play baseball. They were given fake skills from these PEDs

[HoustonGM]

Because these guys can't actually play baseball. They were given fake skills from these PEDs

Barry Bonds was an all-time great before he started using steroids.

You ridiculously exaggerate the effects of PEDs. They do not give you baseball skills.

[metsguy234]

Barry Bonds was an all-time great before he started using steroids.

You ridiculously exaggerate the effects of PEDs. They do not give you baseball skills.

Barry Bonds may have been using steroids his whole career, we can't prove how long he used them.

[HoustonGM]

Barry Bonds may have been using steroids his whole career, we can't prove how long he used them.

You can't even prove that he DID use them at all.

But, it's quite clear to anybody not blinded by personal bias and blind hatred of PEDs that he wasn't using them for his entire career.

[RedsoxRockies]

Barry Bonds may have been using steroids his whole career, we can't prove how long he used them.

When the storm its your front door, with a roar you can't ignore, but theres no place to hide mate.

Dude, stop avoiding reality, you can not escape it and it WILL hit you hard.

[kenny1234]

You can't even prove that he DID use them at all.

But, it's quite clear to anybody not blinded by personal bias and blind hatred of PEDs that he wasn't using them for his entire career.

Houston, I would like to agree with you - but we have no way of knowing when or if a player used steroids or other performance enhancing drugs. And I have no personal bias one way or the other. Also, we have no good measure of how PEDs affect performance. If we knew when players used them - then we could measure the differential effects (though even then there are major statistical complications) - but as it stands, there is simply no way of knowing what any player would have done if things were different.

My opinion is that we judge players based on what we can see - because I don't see any other way of assessing players from this era. I judge the steroid era in the same way I would judge the deadball era or the low offense era of the 60's - just compare players to their contemporaries. But I can see someone's point if they say that Clemens, Bonds, McGwire and others are simply excluded from the discussion of all-time great baseball players because we do not know how their career would have panned out without drugs.

[HoustonGM]

Houston, I would like to agree with you - but we have no way of knowing when or if a player used steroids or other performance enhancing drugs.

So, that means we should assume the worst - that he used his entire career?

And I have no personal bias one way or the other. Also, we have no good measure of how PEDs affect performance. If we knew when players used them - then we could measure the differential effects (though even then there are major statistical complications) - but as it stands, there is simply no way of knowing what any player would have done if things were different.

My opinion is that we judge players based on what we can see - because I don't see any other way of assessing players from this era. I judge the steroid era in the same way I would judge the deadball era or the low offense era of the 60's - just compare players to their contemporaries.

Yes, 100% agreed.

But I can see someone's point if they say that Clemens, Bonds, McGwire and others are simply excluded from the discussion of all-time great baseball players because we do not know how their career would have panned out without drugs.

I can't see that point, really. "We don't know, so, let's ignore them completely"? No thanks. But, at any rate, that position is NOT what metsguy is advocating. Metsguy is saying something entirely different, and while that position is somewhat defensible, metsguy's position...isn't. At all.

He's including them in the discussion, but placing them below EVERY OTHER PLAYER, which is just ridiculous. He's not saying, "I don't know, so I'm going to ignore them." He's saying, "I know he did steroids so that means that he's the worst player ever."

[metsguy234]

So, that means we should assume the worst - that he used his entire career?


Yes, 100% agreed.


I can't see that point, really. "We don't know, so, let's ignore them completely"? No thanks. But, at any rate, that position is NOT what metsguy is advocating. Metsguy is saying something entirely different, and while that position is somewhat defensible, metsguy's position...isn't. At all.

He's including them in the discussion, but placing them below EVERY OTHER PLAYER, which is just ridiculous. He's not saying, "I don't know, so I'm going to ignore them." He's saying, "I know he did steroids so that means that he's the worst player ever."

That's not the message I'm intending to send across though.