Ranking the top pitchers since the 1940's

[metsguy234]

Only somebody with an extreme bias against steroids would make such a statement. It's bias. There's no denying it.

Steroids are illegal. I don't have a bias against them. They're...illegal. They make you perform better then you physically could. And did I mention they're illegal?

[RedsoxRockies]

here is MY Subjective 10

1 Pedro Martinez
2 Sandy Koufax
3 Nolan Ryan
4 Greg Maddux
5 Bob Gibson
6 Roger 'the Dodger' Clemens
7 Tom Seaver
8 Jim Palmer
9 Bruce Sutter
10 Mariano Rivera

Sutter? He should not be any where near Mariano, why is Seaver so low, and why is Maddux not Numerò Uno?

[RedsoxRockies]

Steroids are illegal. I don't have a bias against them. They're...illegal. They make you perform better then you physically could. And did I mention they're illegal?

Some of them were not illegal when Clemens allegedly used them, however....

[metsguy234]

HGM, your list is awful so your not one to talk

1) Clemens- STEROIDS *
2) Maddux- *
3) Seaver
4) Johnson- * He's not that amazing
5) Spahn
6) Pedro- * Laughable...
7) Koufax
8) Carlton
9) Wynn -LOL
10) Glavine- *
11) Perry
12) Niekro- Should be 13th
13) Ryan- Are you slow or something?
14) Sutton-



*= Can you say "Modern Bias"?

[HoustonGM]

Steroids are illegal. I don't have a bias against them. They're...illegal. They make you perform better then you physically could. And did I mention they're illegal?

Again, tell me how using them than somehow makes you the worst player to ever play the game.

By all current evidence, the EARLIEST "starting point" of steroid use by Clemens was the mid/late-1990's. He was already an all-time great pitcher without steroids. Having used steroids doesn't then make him a terrible player. In terms of on-field performance, he's one of the top 5 pitchers of all-time, let alone the last half-century. The ONLY way to deny that is to incorporate a huge amount of personal bias into your evaluation, which you're no stranger of.

Sutter? He should not be any where near Mariano, why is Seaver so low, and why is Maddux not Numerò Uno?

"subjective" ranking. Basically, he ranked his favorite players.

[metsguy234]

Some of them were not illegal when Clemens allegedly used them, however....

They still enhanced his performance tho... so he really didn't win all those games and strike out all those batters, the drugs did

[HoustonGM]

4) Johnson- * He's not that amazing

6) Pedro- * Laughable...

13) Ryan- Are you slow or something?

You're insane.

I also said that I didn't put much time into the ranking. I will post a revised ranking when I get home.

*= Can you say "Modern Bias"?

Uh, what? The pitchers to be ranked are mostly modern pitchers.

[metsguy234]

Again, tell me how using them than somehow makes you the worst player to ever play the game.

Because Clemens wouldn't be half as good without the steroids

[RedsoxRockies]

They still enhanced his performance tho... so he really didn't win all those games and strike out all those batters, the drugs did

You are hopeless

[metsguy234]

Uh, what? The pitchers to be ranked are mostly modern pitchers.

But all the 90s/2000s people are right at the top... pathetic

[FRENCHREDSOX]

There is no way Clemens is not in the top 5 of these pitchers unless you incorporate personal bias into your rankings. It's that simple. If you want to continue arguing semantics and the definition of "objective", go right ahead, but I'm not going to participate. If you want to make an argument that Clemens is not in the top 5 of this list, go right ahead, but you're going to have some trouble doing that.

It is not semantics but precision as YOU started (see post #1) by claiming that Objectivity was the basis of some votes.

To me, that says that there's simply two groups where it comes to ranking Clemens - the people that look objectively at the performance record and rank* him based on that and the people that let the steroid issue and their personal opinion** of the guy cloud their judgment and rank him incredibly low.

*rank = SUBJECTIVENESS **personal opinion = SUBJECTIVITY



I simply pointed out that NO ONE can give an objective analysis of Clemens because of the "steroids" issue & its POSSIBLE Effects on his stats.Now if you believe HE NEVER did steroids EVER & obviously have proof of this,not once ,then you can claim to have an objective viewpoint.

However the athletes in question do not compete directly against one another,unlike say in 50m Freestyle or 1500M running or even in NASCAR then the rankings in themselves are totally subjective as the comparisons are based on personal weights & likes eg is K more important than IPs or Wins than ERA+ etc etc

[RedsoxRockies]

HGM, your list is awful so your not one to talk

1) Clemens- STEROIDS *
2) Maddux- *
3) Seaver
4) Johnson- * He's not that amazing
5) Spahn
6) Pedro- * Laughable...
7) Koufax
8) Carlton
9) Wynn -LOL
10) Glavine- *
11) Perry
12) Niekro- Should be 13th
13) Ryan- Are you slow or something?
14) Sutton-



*= Can you say "Modern Bias"?

Wtf? Dude....

[metsguy234]

Wtf? Dude....

My list was the most accurate so far

[RedsoxRockies]

But all the 90s/2000s people are right at the top... pathetic

But all those 90s/2000 people were good. Just because they all played at once should not count against them...

[RedsoxRockies]

My list was the most accurate so far

ROFL! LMAO! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Your not serious, are you?