Ibanez goes to Phillies

[skudplayr]

His batting average is way, way, way lower than Ibanez.

[RedsoxRockies]

His batting average is way, way, way lower than Ibanez.

He walks more though. And that is more important.

[ragecage]

I had no idea that Ibanez was that old.

[beerchaser]

Burrell needs to be a DH, he has the mobility of a tree stump. In fact, when he's at the plate they should have a designated runner in the other batter's box, ready to head to first on contact.

[asianinvasion]

More picks for Seattle, it should be 4 1st round picks. #2, #21, whatever Philly's pick was and the supplementary pick,

[HoustonGM]

His batting average is way, way, way lower than Ibanez.

And his on-base percentage and power are better. All told, they are roughly equivalent hitters. They both suck defensively and on the basepaths. They're both durable.

The only difference is that Ibanez is 4 or so years older. Therefore, Burrell > Ibanez.

Burrell needs to be a DH, he has the mobility of a tree stump. In fact, when he's at the plate they should have a designated runner in the other batter's box, ready to head to first on contact.

The same goes for Ibanez.

[RedsoxRockies]

Burrell needs to be a DH, he has the mobility of a tree stump. In fact, when he's at the plate they should have a designated runner in the other batter's box, ready to head to first on contact.

That more describes Raul, who is even worse.

[HoustonGM]

What makes this worse is that the Phillies gave up a draft pick, and DIDN'T offer arbitration to Burrell so they won't get one for him leaving. This whole series of events is truly baffling.

[BrewCrewFan255]

I would take Ibanez over Burrell any day. Raul Ibanez hit's for average ( past 4 seasons: 05: .280 06: .289 07: .291 08: .293. He doesn't strike out that often, never had a season about 115, usually in the 90-100 range. He walks 55-70 times per year, so his OBP isn't that bad at all .358 last season, never been below .350 since 04. He hit's for homers 20-30 the last 4 seasons, and he's durable playing in 149 or more games since 2004.

Here are his full stats since 04

04: .304 AVG, .353 OBP, 16 HR, 62 RBI, 36 BB, 72 K, 481 AB
05: .280 AVG, .355 OBP, 20 HR, 89 RBI, 71 BB, 99 K, 614 AB
06: .289 AVG, .353 OBP, 33 HR, 123 RBI, 65 BB, 115 K, 626 AB
07: .291 AVG, .351 OBP, 21 HR, 105 RBI, 53 BB, 97 K, 573 AB
08: .293 AVG, .358 OBP, 23 HR, 110 RBI, 64 BB, 110 K, 635 AB

Pat Burrell Stats

04: .257 AVG, .365 OBP. 24 HR, 84 RBI, 78 BB, 130 K, 448 AB
05: .281 AVG, .389 OBP, 32 HR, 117 RBI, 99 BB, 160 K, 562 AB
06: .258 AVG, .388 OBP, 29 HR, 95 RBI, 98 BB, 131 K, 462 AB
07: .256 AVG, .400 OBP, 30 HR, 97 RBI, 114 BB, 120 K, 472 AB
08: .250 AVG, .367 OBP, 33 HR, 86 RBI, 102 BB, 136 K, 536 AB

Looking at these stats, Ibanez's really proven. Each year he will give you anywhere from a .280-.295 AVG, with 20-30 HR's, and 100+ RBI's, and play in at least most of your games. He's rarley hurt, and he' been playing with a really poor offense lineup. His numbers should even go up playing with a really good hitters park, and a weaker NL. Pat Burrell even playing in a hitters park, hasn't even had more then 1 100 RBI seasons, while Ibanez even at his age had 3 in the last 3 seasons. Burrell walks, but he strikes out a lot. Burrell is more like an Adam Dunn, while Ibanez is more of an all around player. Both are bad defense, and I would take Ibanez offense over Burrell's even at Ibanez age.

[KowboyKoop]

I would take Ibanez over Burrell any day. Raul Ibanez hit's for average ( past 4 seasons: 05: .280 06: .289 07: .291 08: .293. He doesn't strike out that often, never had a season about 115, usually in the 90-100 range. He walks 55-70 times per year, so his OBP isn't that bad at all .358 last season, never been below .350 since 04. He hit's for homers 20-30 the last 4 seasons, and he's durable playing in 149 or more games since 2004.

Here are his full stats since 04

04: .304 AVG, .353 OBP, 16 HR, 62 RBI, 36 BB, 72 K, 481 AB
05: .280 AVG, .355 OBP, 20 HR, 89 RBI, 71 BB, 99 K, 614 AB
06: .289 AVG, .353 OBP, 33 HR, 123 RBI, 65 BB, 115 K, 626 AB
07: .291 AVG, .351 OBP, 21 HR, 105 RBI, 53 BB, 97 K, 573 AB
08: .293 AVG, .358 OBP, 23 HR, 110 RBI, 64 BB, 110 K, 635 AB

Pat Burrell Stats

04: .257 AVG, .365 OBP. 24 HR, 84 RBI, 78 BB, 130 K, 448 AB
05: .281 AVG, .389 OBP, 32 HR, 117 RBI, 99 BB, 160 K, 562 AB
06: .258 AVG, .388 OBP, 29 HR, 95 RBI, 98 BB, 131 K, 462 AB
07: .256 AVG, .400 OBP, 30 HR, 97 RBI, 114 BB, 120 K, 472 AB
08: .250 AVG, .367 OBP, 33 HR, 86 RBI, 102 BB, 136 K, 536 AB

Looking at these stats, Ibanez's really proven. Each year he will give you anywhere from a .280-.295 AVG, with 20-30 HR's, and 100+ RBI's, and play in at least most of your games. He's rarley hurt, and he' been playing with a really poor offense lineup. His numbers should even go up playing with a really good hitters park, and a weaker NL. Pat Burrell even playing in a hitters park, hasn't even had more then 1 100 RBI seasons, while Ibanez even at his age had 3 in the last 3 seasons. Burrell walks, but he strikes out a lot. Burrell is more like an Adam Dunn, while Ibanez is more of an all around player. Both are bad defense, and I would take Ibanez offense over Burrell's even at Ibanez age.

I expect HGM will take speak to my point more at length, but just let me say..

No.

[metsguy234]

Ibanez is pretty good. I never liked Burrell much as a player tho.

[HoustonGM]

I would take Ibanez over Burrell any day.

Which would you rather have:

Pat Burrell for 1 year at $16 mil or so

or

Raul Ibanez for 3 years at $10 mil per and loss of a first round draft pick

Anybody that chooses option B knows nothing about baseball. And yes, that is essentially what the Phillies did. They did not offer arbitration to Burrell, even though if they had, the options would be getting Burrell back for a year at a cost of around $16 million, maybe even less or letting Burrell go and getting back TWO draft picks. They decided to let Burrell go and forfeit compensation, presumably because there would've been a risk of him accepting and being "overpaid" for one year. So, they signed a guy who is basically the same player, except 5 years older, for more money and 3 years, AND also costs them their first round draft pick. It's ridiculously mindboggling. This article sums it up well.

Raul Ibanez hit's for average ( past 4 seasons: 05: .280 06: .289 07: .291 08: .293

Doesn't matter once you account for the fact that, overall, they are both basically equally valuable offensively.

He doesn't strike out that often, never had a season about 115usually in the 90-100 range.

Same goes for this.

He walks 55-70 times per year, so his OBP isn't that bad at all .358 last season, never been below .350 since 04.

Burrell's hasn't been below .365 since 2003.

He hit's for homers 20-30 the last 4 seasons

Burrell has hit 21-37 home runs in each of the last 8 seasons.

and he's durable playing in 149 or more games since 2004.

Burrell is also durable.

Looking at these stats, Ibanez's really proven. Each year he will give you anywhere from a .280-.295 AVG, with 20-30 HR's, and 100+ RBI's, and play in at least most of your games.

Pat Burrell is equally proven. Each year he'll hit .250, with an OBP between .360 and .400, with 30 home runs and play in most of your games.

He's rarley hurt

Same for Burrell.

and he' been playing with a really poor offense lineup.

Irrelevant to his value.

His numbers should even go up playing with a really good hitters park, and a weaker NL.

Again, irrelevant to his value. His numbers may appear to be boosted, but because of the different run environment, don't change in value.

Pat Burrell even playing in a hitters park, hasn't even had more then 1 100 RBI seasons, while Ibanez even at his age had 3 in the last 3 seasons.

It kind of sucks when you bat behind Ryan Howard who routinely clears the bases, doesn't it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Burrell or Ibanez as players.

Burrell walks, but he strikes out a lot. Burrell is more like an Adam Dunn, while Ibanez is more of an all around player.

Adam Dunn is better than both of them, but the shape of the offense is irrelevant. It's the value. And Burrell and Ibanez, in terms of value, are equivalent. Adjust for age, and Burrell is the better long-term property by 10,000 miles.

Both are bad defense, and I would take Ibanez offense over Burrell's even at Ibanez age.

Their offense is essentially equal. Burrell's OPS+ the last 4 years - 128, 122, 127, 125. Ibanez's 115, 125, 121, 124. And then, you absolutely must account for the age factor.

I expect HGM will take speak to my point more at length, but just let me say..

No.

Did it before even seeing your post, hah.

But really, the main point is what I said above. The entire series of events, beginning with not offering arbitration to Burrell, is ridiculous.

[BrewCrewFan255]

Ibanez is the better fit then Burrell is, the Phillies already have Howard who strikes out a ton. Ibanez at least most of the time puts the ball in play. The reason why Burrell home runs are up is because he's playing in the best hitting park in the NL. In 08, Burrell's numbers were higher on the road, but in 07, he only hit .220 on the road, and in 06 he hit .254 on the road. Ibanez numbers and his overall value will be a lot higher in a hitters park, and he's a better fit then Burrell is.

[HoustonGM]

Ibanez is the better fit then Burrell is

Most definitely NOT, and I'll get to why in a second.

the Phillies already have Howard who strikes out a ton. Ibanez at least most of the time puts the ball in play.

Again, irrelevant to their overall value as players.

The reason why Burrell home runs are up is because he's playing in the best hitting park in the NL. In 08, Burrell's numbers were higher on the road, but in 07, he only hit .220 on the road, and in 06 he hit .254 on the road.

In 2008, he hit 12 home home runs and 21 away home runs.
In 2007, 16/14, 2006, 12/17. 2005, 20/12. 2004, 14/10.

For his career, he has 118 home homers and 133 away homers. His home OPS is .851. His away OPS is .853. Burrell is the exact same hitter when he's at home as he is on the road.

Ibanez numbers and his overall value will be a lot higher in a hitters park

Absolutely wrong. His numbers have a chance to be higher, yes, purely because of the environment, which means his ACTUAL VALUE won't change.

and he's a better fit then Burrell is.

With Utley and Howard in the middle of the order, the Phillies are very susceptible to the left-handed reliever. Add Ibanez to that, and Charlie Manuel's apparent refusal to split up his lefties in the lineup, and you're going to set it up so that teams can go to their best lefty late in the game for 3 consecutive left-handed batters. It's a terrible strategic move. Ibanez and Burrell are basically the same exact player, except their offensive value is shaped a little differently and they have opposite-handedness. In a lefty-heavy lineup like the Phillies, that means the right-hander is the better fit.

Please, if you somehow have evidence that a 37 year old poor defensive outfielder with an OPS+ of around 123 over the last few years is somehow more likely to be better over his age 37-39 seasons than a 32 year old poor defensive outfielder with an OPS+ of around 125 over the last few years is to be over his age 32-34 seasons (or, in the case of having offering him arbitration, just simply next year), let me see it.

I'm really interested in knowing how a 3 year commitment, $30 million, loss of a first round draft pick (!!!), and Raul Ibanez is a better choice than Pat Burrell for a year at ~$16 million.

[Alloutwar]

This must have been influenced by Burrell - he must have wanted to go. I mean, not even arbitration?? There had to have been some falling out. This move is at best lateral - if Ibanez performs very well - otherwise it has a big chance of being a net loss.

I was intrigued by the Dunn in LF possibility (although Howard and Dunn in the same lineup might break K records), or thinking they could put Jenkins to use in LF, or bring up/trade for a decent prospect. But Ibanez, then trying to sell this as an improvement? Hmm.