Joe Gordon only Veteran's Committee Selection

[EP Hotties]

Sorry, I'm a little mixed up today :/

[ragecage]

Whats the point of arguing borderline hall of fame players when they let in a dump truck in a yankee uni? Whats next, Cecil Fielder cuz he hit 51 homers one season? What a mockery. I can only think Joe gave some good hand jobs to the committee.

[Swampdog]

Everyone has an opinion on these things, of course, and it all means very little. Nonetheless, I would say that Gordon has about as good a case as several others already inducted. He was better than about half of the second baseman already in the HOF, albeit with a shorter career. He did lose 2 years at his peak to WWII (1944-1945)as well. Others are already in the HOF with similarly short careers.

Gordon was also the best second baseman of his generation (with only Bobby Doerr competing for that title, I would think). Blyleven, Santo, Hodges....I dont see how any of them could make the claim that they were the best of their era (especially Blyleven).

I would think that Santo is equally (or more) deserving, but thats how it goes. Gordon isnt the worst pick for the Hall that I have ever seen.

[HoustonGM]

Do they release the voting results for these or not?

Yes. Here.

Results of the 2008 Pre-1943 Players Ballot (nine votes needed for election): Gordon (10 votes, 83.3 percent), Allie Reynolds (eight, 66.7 percent), Wes Ferrell (six, 50.0 percent), Mickey Vernon (five, 41.7 percent), Deacon White (five, 41.7 percent), Bucky Walters (4, 33.3 percent), Sherry Magee (three, 25.0 percent), Bill Dahlen, Carl Mays and Vern Stephens (fewer than three).

Allie Reynolds falling one vote short of induction is ridiculous. The most deserving player on this list, in my opinion, was Bill Dahlen and he received "less than 3 votes." Then again, a 12 person voting committee is pretty silly.

Results of the 2008 Post-1942 Players Ballot (48 votes needed for election): Santo (39 votes, 60.9 percent), Jim Kaat (38, 59.4 percent), Tony Oliva (33, 51.6 percent), Gil Hodges (28, 43.8 percent), Joe Torre (19, 29.7 percent), Maury Wills (15, 23.4 percent), Luis Tiant (13, 20.3 percent), Vada Pinson (12, 18.8 percent), Al Oliver (nine, 14.1 percent), Dick Allen (seven, 10.9 percent).

WTF? This dude played 11 seasons! I hope everyone who voted for this guy dies in a plane crash or something

- how do they justify this nobody going in and Gil Hodges, Ron Santo, Bert Byleven staying out?

Well, for one, Bert Blyleven isn't up to the Veteran's Committee. For two, Ron Santo being out is a travesty, yes, and he's definitely more deserving than Gordon, but a different group of voters voted on the ballot with Santo. And for Hodges, Gordon did have a shorter career, but he had better offensive stats AS A SECOND BASEMEN, while Hodges was a first basemen. Hodges stats pale in comparison to Hall of Fame first basemen, while Gordon's fit perfectly in with Hall of Fame second basemen. You also have to give Gordon credit for the two seasons he missed due to serving his country. Give him those two seasons, and he looks identical, if not better, than Bobby Doerr who was inducted into the Hall 22 years ago.

They really need to change the induction percentage for the veterans comitee...

The induction process, agreed. This was the first VC under the recently changed rules, but I still think it needs to be revamped. No idea how though.

There is really no legitimate argument for this guy being in the HOF though

Yes, there is.

- It's just the HOF's goal of electing every Yankee ever

This is ridiculously untrue. There is no "Yankee bias" in the overall HOF voting. I do think there may have been a "Yankee bias" among the 12 VC voters, considering Allie Reynolds almost got in, and there's a guy with no legitimate argument.

Gordon isnt the worst pick for the Hall that I have ever seen.

Far, far from it.

[Coach Owens]

What a suprise to see the Seattle native snubbed yet again!

[RedsoxRockies]

Yes. Here.

Results of the 2008 Pre-1943 Players Ballot (nine votes needed for election): Gordon (10 votes, 83.3 percent), Allie Reynolds (eight, 66.7 percent), Wes Ferrell (six, 50.0 percent), Mickey Vernon (five, 41.7 percent), Deacon White (five, 41.7 percent), Bucky Walters (4, 33.3 percent), Sherry Magee (three, 25.0 percent), Bill Dahlen, Carl Mays and Vern Stephens (fewer than three).

Allie Reynolds falling one vote short of induction is ridiculous. The most deserving player on this list, in my opinion, was Bill Dahlen and he received "less than 3 votes." Then again, a 12 person voting committee is pretty silly.

Results of the 2008 Post-1942 Players Ballot (48 votes needed for election): Santo (39 votes, 60.9 percent), Jim Kaat (38, 59.4 percent), Tony Oliva (33, 51.6 percent), Gil Hodges (28, 43.8 percent), Joe Torre (19, 29.7 percent), Maury Wills (15, 23.4 percent), Luis Tiant (13, 20.3 percent), Vada Pinson (12, 18.8 percent), Al Oliver (nine, 14.1 percent), Dick Allen (seven, 10.9 percent).





Well, for one, Bert Blyleven isn't up to the Veteran's Committee. For two, Ron Santo being out is a travesty, yes, and he's definitely more deserving than Gordon, but a different group of voters voted on the ballot with Santo. And for Hodges, Gordon did have a shorter career, but he had better offensive stats AS A SECOND BASEMEN, while Hodges was a first basemen. Hodges stats pale in comparison to Hall of Fame first basemen, while Gordon's fit perfectly in with Hall of Fame second basemen. You also have to give Gordon credit for the two seasons he missed due to serving his country. Give him those two seasons, and he looks identical, if not better, than Bobby Doerr who was inducted into the Hall 22 years ago.


The induction process, agreed. This was the first VC under the recently changed rules, but I still think it needs to be revamped. No idea how though.


Yes, there is.


This is ridiculously untrue. There is no "Yankee bias" in the overall HOF voting. I do think there may have been a "Yankee bias" among the 12 VC voters, considering Allie Reynolds almost got in, and there's a guy with no legitimate argument.


Far, far from it.

Actually, there was a Giants bias at one point when a former player of theirs headed the VC. Many non-deserving Giants were elected that played during the 1920's. But no, there is not a Yankee bias

[HoustonGM]

Interesting little discussion from the Baseball Think Factory thread:

This group has been a mirror image of the Frankie Frisch VC -- it has shown a pronounced bias against players it played against. So, Gordon and Reynolds, whom virtually none of the VC remember well get a lot of support.

This is a sharp insight and a key point. This group of veterans is undoubtedly aware of what the Frisch cabal did in the 1970s, because they've been constituted with fairly explicit instructions to "don't do something like that." I think they may be self-consciously erring in the opposite direction.

This is a sharp insight and a key point. This group of veterans is undoubtedly aware of what the Frisch cabal did in the 1970s, because they've been constituted with fairly explicit instructions to "don't do something like that." I think they may be self-consciously erring in the opposite direction.

[HoustonGM]

Actually, there was a Giants bias at one point when a former player of theirs headed the VC. Many non-deserving Giants were elected that played during the 1920's. But no, there is not a Yankee bias

I never said anything about a "Giants bias." But yes, you're right, the 70's VC did have a bias to former teammates of Frankie Frisch, because Frisch headed the committee. I just made a post at the same time as yours referencing that specifically, actually. See above.

[RedsoxRockies]

I never said anything about a "Giants bias." But yes, you're right, the 70's VC did have a bias to former teammates of Frankie Frisch, because Frisch headed the committee. I just made a post at the same time as yours referencing that specifically, actually. See above.

I never said you said anything, I was speaking to metsguy. and Lol that we posted about the same thing at the same time.

[HoustonGM]

I never said you said anything, I was speaking to metsguy.

Well it's pretty confusing if you quote my post, don't reply to it, but speak to somebody else without addressing them by name.

[RedsoxRockies]

Well it's pretty confusing if you quote my post, don't reply to it, but speak to somebody else without addressing them by name.

I was supporting what you said to Metsguy.

[metsguy234]

Earle Combs
1 New York
American

Bill Dickey
8 New York
American

Joe DiMaggio
5 New York
American

Whitey Ford
16 New York
American

Lou Gehrig
4 New York
American

Lefty Gomez
11 New York
American

Joe Gordon
Probably Going in as a Yankee

Waite Hoyt
19 New York
American

Miller Huggins
- New York
American

Reggie Jackson
44 New York
American

Tony Lazzeri
6 New York
American

Mickey Mantle
7 New York
American

Joe McCarthy
- New York
American

Phil Rizzuto
10 New York
American

Red Ruffing
15 New York
American

Babe Ruth
3 New York
American

Casey Stengel
37 New York
American


Lazzeri? Rizzuto? Huggins?

YANKEE BIAS

[HoustonGM]

Just because the Yankees have a lot of Hall of Famers does not mean that there is a "Yankee bias." The Yankees have had scores of good players, and are also one of the longest existing franchises.

The overwhelming majority of the people you listed deserve their induction. You listed 17 Hall of Fame Yankees. Huggins, Stengal, and McCarthy got in due to their managerial careers, all deservedly. Of the 14 players, 10 have been inducted over at the Hall of Merit. The remaining 4 players are Earle Combs, Lefty Gomez, Waite Hoyt, and Phil Rizzuto. Of those 4, Combs is the only one that doesn't really get any support in the annual HoM elections. The HoM is also based purely off player performance record. The real life HOF elections are influenced by other factors. Hoyt and Rizzuto both obviously got credit for their broadcasting careers, and both were very well-distinguished broadcasters. So, that leaves 2 players, Combs and Gomez, both of whom were very good players, just with relatively short careers.

I'm also not entirely sure where you grabbed that list from, since you're missing a few Yankees (like Yogi Berra). At any rate, you haven't proven any "bias." If there was a "Yankee bias", explain why Don Mattingly is still on the outside looking in.

[metsguy234]

Just because the Yankees have a lot of Hall of Famers does not mean that there is a "Yankee bias." The Yankees have had scores of good players, and are also one of the longest existing franchises.

The overwhelming majority of the people you listed deserve their induction. You listed 17 Hall of Fame Yankees. Huggins, Stengal, and McCarthy got in due to their managerial careers, all deservedly. Of the 14 players, 10 have been inducted over at the Hall of Merit. The remaining 4 players are Earle Combs, Lefty Gomez, Waite Hoyt, and Phil Rizzuto. Of those 4, Combs is the only one that doesn't really get any support in the annual HoM elections. The HoM is also based purely off player performance record. The real life HOF elections are influenced by other factors. Hoyt and Rizzuto both obviously got credit for their broadcasting careers, and both were very well-distinguished broadcasters. So, that leaves 2 players, Combs and Gomez, both of whom were very good players, just with relatively short careers.

So these random Internet people voting for this Hall of Merit are emotionless robots with absolutely no bias or outside opinions of any players at all?

I'm also not entirely sure where you grabbed that list from, since you're missing a few Yankees (like Yogi Berra). At any rate, you haven't proven any "bias." If there was a "Yankee bias", explain why Don Mattingly is still on the outside looking in.

I got that list from Baseball-Reference.com of everyone who entered the HOF with a Yankee cap on their plaque. It says Berra's cap is of a undeterminable team.

[HoustonGM]

So these random Internet people voting for this Hall of Merit are emotionless robots with absolutely no bias or outside opinions of any players at all?

EXACTLY!

I got that list from Baseball-Reference.com of everyone who entered the HOF with a Yankee cap on their plaque. It says Berra's cap is of a undeterminable team.

Yeah, because he's facing a different direction. Ha. At any rate, none of that proves there's a "Yankee bias."