Gwynn vs Suzuki

[dickay]

Okay, I'm sick of your crap with this. I'm sorry, but cut it the hell out. I'm just making educated guesses based on the statistical record. It has nothing to do with "insiders" or whatever other sarcastic nonsense you want to throw out there. Get over it.

I can't help but mention that I find it hard to believe the guess could be so 'educated' since Ichiro is the first Japanese position player ever to come from Japan to America. Maybe if there aren't insiders you could 'educate' us on how you came to such an 'educated' guess on what his statistical dropoff would be?

BTW...i've thought about highlighting Ichiros alltime season record for hits in a season as another proof that he's a dominant player but surely you'd counter that with the rediculous statement i've seen many others make which is that he had far more chances due to 700 at bats.

[HoustonGM]

I don't see how your guess could be 'educated'. Its more like a shot in the dark, crystal ball prediction. Have you compared the dropoff of hitters coming from japan to MLB, found a correlation and used that to determine Ichiros?? Highly unlikely, but even if you had it still would be a very suspect as a very small sample size exists and Ichiro is different than pretty much any player whos left Japan for America. I also really don't care if you like it or not, I thought you must be speaking with insider information again because I see no other way you could come up with such info. If you don't like it, stop speaking as if you have such info.

Claiming that Japanese players experience a rather significant drop-off in power when they come over to America is not "speaking as if I have insider information."

Player - SLG in Japan - SLG in America
Ichiro Suzki - .522 - .430
Hideki Matsui - .582 - .478
Akinori Iwamura - .519 - .394
Kazuo Matsui - .486 - .395
Kosuke Fukudome - .543 - .379
Kenji Johjima - .517 - .412
Tadahito Iguchi - .471 - .401
Tsuyoshi Shinjo - .432 - .370
So Taguchi - .387 - .385

That's 9 players, all but one of whom experienced massive dropoffs in power upon arrival in America, and the one that didn't was a guy without much power in Japan.

It's not "insider information" that the level of competition in Japan is lower than that of the MLB. It's accepted fact.

True, but I could come up with no other rational reason why you could possibly elude that Ichiro hasn't been a dominant player.

Because I'm apparently using a different definition of "dominant" than you.

I don't see your point. Ichiro has more significant stats in some areas, Gwynn has more significant stats in others. Stats are a funny thing, as they can be manipulated to support a position.

The only stats that Ichiro beats Gwynn in are defensive and baserunning.

Agreed....it means nothing when comparing two players. I used it as a point to show he's been a dominant player. Surely to be considered for MVP votes you had to have had a dominant season.

You could think that, but you'd be wrong. Many players have been considered for the MVP and not had a "dominant" season.

Really, all I said was it was close between these two...multiple times now.

Yep. It is close. Haven't disagreed.

Why you have to try to belittle Ichiro's accomplishments by saying he hasn't been a dominant player in his 8 seasons is baffling (you even capitalized dominant).

Saying he hasn't been dominant isn't belittling his accomplishments. I have a high standard for "dominant."

It's not semantics, it's rediculous.

It is semantics when we are clearly using different definitions of dominant.

[HoustonGM]

Interestingly enough, this exact same poll was posted a couple months ago, and Gwynn won in a landslide.

[dickay]

Claiming that Japanese players experience a rather significant drop-off in power when they come over to America is not "speaking as if I have insider information."

Player - SLG in Japan - SLG in America
Ichiro Suzki - .522 - .430
Hideki Matsui - .582 - .478
Akinori Iwamura - .519 - .394
Kazuo Matsui - .486 - .395
Kosuke Fukudome - .543 - .379
Kenji Johjima - .517 - .412
Tadahito Iguchi - .471 - .401
Tsuyoshi Shinjo - .432 - .370
So Taguchi - .387 - .385

That's 9 players, all but one of whom experienced massive dropoffs in power upon arrival in America, and the one that didn't was a guy without much power in Japan.

It's not "insider information" that the level of competition in Japan is lower than that of the MLB. It's accepted fact.

I never said it wasn't fact, in fact I said just the opposite, that there is a drop off. What I said was i'm not going to get into a crystal ball guessing game as to what his numbers would have been because its silly and rediculous.

Because I'm apparently using a different definition of "dominant" than you.

Than me and i'd bet a good fortune a different one than most people who call themselves fans and knowledgeable of the game. But of course you would.....i wouldn't expect you of all people to change your decision or admit you were wrong regarding his dominance. Stick to the 'different definition' alibi. Despite being different than most, it works.

The only stats that Ichiro beats Gwynn in are defensive and baserunning.

Actually no. I've mentioned a few already, with the most significant being hits and games played per. But hey....lets not let facts get in the way.

You could think that, but you'd be wrong. Many players have been considered for the MVP and not had a "dominant" season.

I suppose if most everyone changed their definition to use your...well whatever your definition is. I'm guessing your definition is something along the lines of whatever supports the argument you are pushing on given day. Ichiro's MVP season he only had 242 hits, a .352 batting avg....but i'll just stop there. Clearly not a dominant player.

Yep. It is close. Haven't disagreed.

Didn't say you did...only disputing your rediculous claim that Ichiro hasn't been a dominant player in MLB.

Saying he hasn't been dominant isn't belittling his accomplishments. I have a high standard for "dominant."

Apparently the highest.

It is semantics when we are clearly using different definitions of dominant.

But of course.

[dickay]

Interestingly enough, this exact same poll was posted a couple months ago, and Gwynn won in a landslide.

LMFAO...interestingly enough ......while just one post earlier you state you've never claimed it 'wasn't close', in the thread you cited you stated 'Gwynn easily'. But why let a little thing like consistency come into our arguments. Of course you may claim you were only counting their 'mlb careers' but then i'd wonder the signficant of that thread vs. this one since this thread asks about their entire careers.

[HoustonGM]

I never said it wasn't fact, in fact I said just the opposite, that there is a drop off. What I said was i'm not going to get into a crystal ball guessing game as to what his numbers would have been because its silly and rediculous.

It's not, and we have a pretty good idea of what his numbers would have been....because he's played a fair amount in America and his numbers line up perfectly except for a drop-off in power. I don't see why it's silly and ridiculous to awesome that if he had played in America his whole career instead of Japan he'd have a similar batting line just with less power

Than me and i'd bet a good fortune a different one than most people who call themselves fans and knowledgeable of the game. But of course you would.....i wouldn't expect you of all people to change your decision or admit you were wrong regarding his dominance. Stick to the 'different definition' alibi. Despite being different than most, it works.

Dude, get off your high horse, please. People have different opinions of things. I have a high standard for "dominance." I'm sure many other people do to. Barry Bonds 2001-2004 was dominant. Sandy Koufax 1963-1966 was dominant. Pedro Martinez 1999-2003 was dominant. Greg Maddux 1994-1995 was dominant. "Dominant" to me is being head and shoulders above the league.

Actually no. I've mentioned a few already, with the most significant being hits and games played per. But hey....lets not let facts get in the way.

Okay, yes, he beats Gwynn on durability. Number of hits is a direct result of that.

Didn't say you did...only disputing your rediculous claim that Ichiro hasn't been a dominant player in MLB.

Just because I have a differing opinion of you on what "dominance" is does not mean that I'm making a "ridiculous claim."

[HoustonGM]

LMFAO...interestingly enough ......while just one post earlier you state you've never claimed it 'wasn't close', in the thread you cited you stated 'Gwynn easily'. But why let a little thing like consistency come into our arguments. Of course you may claim you were only counting their 'mlb careers' but then i'd wonder the signficant of that thread vs. this one since this thread asks about their entire careers.

If I consider solely MLB careers, yes, I do think it's Gwynn easily.

[etothep]

Interestingly enough, this exact same poll was posted a couple months ago, and Gwynn won in a landslide.

Haha, that's what I can't understand. I was belittled for even asking the question in that thread to begin with and now just a few months later this place is split 50/50 on the same question

you people

[dickay]

It's not, and we have a pretty good idea of what his numbers would have been....because he's played a fair amount in America and his numbers line up perfectly except for a drop-off in power. I don't see why it's silly and ridiculous to awesome that if he had played in America his whole career instead of Japan he'd have a similar batting line just with less power

You're not confused, you know exactly what you're doing. Stop twisting arguments. I'm not going to go back and forth any further. I never claimed it was rediculous to think he'd have a similar batting line with less power, only that it was rediculous to speculate exactly or even approximately what those numbers would have been.

Dude, get off your high horse, please. People have different opinions of things. I have a high standard for "dominance." I'm sure many other people do to. Barry Bonds 2001-2004 was dominant. Sandy Koufax 1963-1966 was dominant. Pedro Martinez 1999-2003 was dominant. Greg Maddux 1994-1995 was dominant. "Dominant" to me is being head and shoulders above the league.

And Ichiro has had more hits in an eight year period than anyone ever. But hey....I never said Ichiro was the most dominant in the league, only that he's been dominant in his time in the MLB. But as I said...stick with the different definition thing. I'm sure you know your on a small island with the few others who think Ichiro hasn't been a dominant player.

Okay, yes, he beats Gwynn on durability. Number of hits is a direct result of that.

Yeah, if only Gwynn was more durable.

Just because I have a differing opinion of you on what "dominance" is does not mean that I'm making a "ridiculous claim."

True. But again, claiming Ichiro hasn't been a dominant player is rediculous.

Other than that........i'm pretty much done with it. You need the last word to end this thing, and surely will continue with the same rhetoric. Post it, and i'll just say you win and leave it be.

[HoustonGM]

You're not confused, you know exactly what you're doing. Stop twisting arguments. I'm not going to go back and forth any further. I never claimed it was rediculous to think he'd have a similar batting line with less power, only that it was rediculous to speculate exactly or even approximately what those numbers would have been.

My "speculation of exactly or even approximately what those numbers would have been" WAS a similar batting line with less power.

And Ichiro has had more hits in an eight year period than anyone ever. But hey....I never said Ichiro was the most dominant in the league, only that he's been dominant in his time in the MLB. But as I said...stick with the different definition thing. I'm sure you know your on a small island with the few others who think Ichiro hasn't been a dominant player.

Like I said earlier, he was dominant in batting average. That's different, IN MY OPINION, than a dominant PLAYER. I don't know why you have such a huge deal with me having a higher standard for dominance than you. And I also don't know why you think I'm so crazy, unique, and ridiculous for having a somewhat high standard for dominance.

You want a dominant leadoff man? Rickey Henderson.

True. But again, claiming Ichiro hasn't been a dominant player is rediculous.

No. It's not. Sorry that you think it's ridiculous that people have differing opinions than you.

Other than that........i'm pretty much done with it. You need the last word to end this thing, and surely will continue with the same rhetoric. Post it, and i'll just say you win and leave it be.

I have no idea why you're getting so worked up over it. I've clearly outlined what I consider "dominant." Ichiro clearly does not fit what I, personally, consider to be dominant. That's not a slight against Ichiro. It's not meant to belittle him. He's an excellent player, and he'll be in the Hall of Fame one day, deservingly.

[ohms_law]

Dickey, please stop being so argumentative.


Anyway, I voted for Gwynn although I really want to vote for Ichiro.
I'm really torn on this question, and part of the problem is that the comparison is far from complete. I think that Ichiro will remain as durable as he has been so far, which gives him tremendous value going into the future... but, for a typical 6 year Rookie - Free agency type of comparison I've gotta take Gwynn. I could always sell him for another great player in year 6, after all.

[dickay]

Dickey, please stop being so argumentative.

It takes two to tango, but I guess the being a moderator gives the guy who gets into the most arguments in these forums extra privilege.

[filihok]

I guess the being a moderator gives the guy who gets into the most arguments in these forums extra privilege.

Help me jesus...i agree with Dickay on something

[dickay]

Help me jesus...i agree with Dickay on something

hahaha, the jesus part made me laugh.

[filihok]

it was supposed to