Most overated HOFers

[Wassit3]

This stems from our other thread on what pitchers/players belong in the HOF, well some of the comments in those two threads made me wonder then what players that are in the HOF do you think shouldn't be ?

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/history/mlb_h...halloffame.jsp

2007 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 2
2007 COVERAGE >
Tony Gwynn, Cal Ripken Jr.

2006 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 18
2006 COVERAGE >
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Biz Mackey, Effa Manley, José Méndez, Alex Pompez, *** Posey, Louis Santop, Bruce Sutter, Mule Suttles, Ben Taylor, Cristóbal Torriente, Sol White, J.L. Wilkinson, Jud Wilson

2005 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 2
2005 COVERAGE >
Wade Boggs, Ryne Sandberg

2004 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 2
2004 COVERAGE >
Dennis Eckersley, Paul Molitor

2003 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 2
2003 COVERAGE >
Eddie Murray, Gary Carter

2002 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 1
2002 COVERAGE >
Ozzie Smith

2001 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 4
2001 COVERAGE >
Dave Winfield, Kirby Puckett, Bill Mazeroski,
Hilton Smith

2000 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 5
Carlton Fisk, Tony Perez, Sparky Anderson,
Turkey Stearnes, Bid McPhee

1999 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 7
Robin Yount, George Brett, Nolan Ryan ,
Orlando Cepeda, Joe Williams, Nestor Chylak Jr.,
Frank Selee

1998 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 5
Don Sutton, Larry Doby , Lee MacPhail,
George Davis, 'Bullet' Joe Rogan

1997 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 4
Tommy Lasorda, Phil Niekro, Nellie Fox,
Willie Wells

1996 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 4
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster, Ned Hanlon,
Earl Weaver

1995 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 5
Richie Ashburn , Leon Day, William Hulbert,
Mike Schmidt, Vic Willis

1994 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 3
Steve Carlton , Leo Durocher, Phil Rizzuto

1993 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 1
Reggie Jackson

1992 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 4
Rollie Fingers , Bill McGowan, Hal Newhouser,
Tom Seaver

1991 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 5
Rod Carew , Ferguson Jenkins , Tony Lazzeri,
Gaylord Perry, Bill Veeck

1990 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 2
Joe Morgan , Jim Palmer

1989 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 4
Al Barlick, Johnny Bench , Red Schoendienst,
Carl Yastrzemski

1988 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 1
Willie Stargell

1987 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 3
Ray Dandridge, Catfish Hunter , Billy Williams

1986 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 3
Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi, Willie McCovey

1985 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 4
Lou Brock, Enos Slaughter, Arky Vaughan,
Hoyt Wilhelm

1984 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 5
Luis Aparicio, Don Drysdale , Rick Ferrell,
Harmon Killebrew , Pee Wee Reese

1983 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 4
Walter Alston, George Kell, Juan Marichal,
Brooks Robinson

1982 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 4
Hank Aaron, Happy Chandler, Travis Jackson,
Frank Robinson

1981 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 3
Rube Foster, Bob Gibson , Johnny Mize

1980 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 4
Al Kaline, Chuck Klein, Duke Snider,
Tom Yawkey

1979 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 3
Warren Giles, Willie Mays, Hack Wilson

1978 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 3
Addie Joss, Larry MacPail, Eddie Matthews

1977 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 6
Ernie Banks, Martin Dihigo, Pop Lloyd,
Al Lopez, Amos Rusie, Joe Sewell

1976 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 6
Oscar Charleston, Roger Connor, Cal Hubbard,
Bob Lemon, Fred Lindstrom, Robin Roberts

1975 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 5
Earl Averill, Bucky Harris, Billy Herman,
Judy Johnson, Ralph Kiner

1974 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 6
Cool Papa Bell, Jim Bottomley, Jocko Conlan,
Whitey Ford, Mickey Mantle, Sam Thompson

1973 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 6
Roberto Clemente, Billy Evans, Monte Irvin,
George Kelly, Warren Spahn, Mickey Welch

1972 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 8
Yogi Berra, Josh Gibson, Lefty Gomez, Will Harridge, Sandy Koufax, Buck Leonard, Early Wynn, Ross Youngs

1971 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 8
Dave Bancroft, Jake Beckley, Chick Hafey,
Harry Hooper, Joe Kelley, Rube Marquard,
Satchel Paige, George Weiss

1970 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 4
Lou Boudreau, Earle Combs, Ford Frick,
Jesse Haines

1969 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 4
Roy Campanella, Stan Coveleski, Waite Hoyt,
Stan Musial

1968 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 3
Kiki Cuyler, Goose Goslin, Joe Medwick

1967 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 3
Branch Rickey, Red Ruffing, Lloyd Waner

1966 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 2
Casey Stengel, Ted Williams

1964 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 8
Luke Appling, Red Faber, Pud Galvin,
Burleigh Grimes, Miller Huggins, Tim Keefe,
Heinie Manush, John Montgomery Ward

1963 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 4
John Clarkson, Elmer Flick, Sam Rice,
Eppa Rixey

1962 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 4
Bob Feller, Bill McKechnie, Jackie Robinson,
Edd Roush

1961 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 2
Max Carey, Billy Hamilton

1959 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 1
Zack Wheat

1957 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 2
Sam Crawford, Joe McCarthy

1956 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 2
Joe Cronin, Hank Greenberg

1955 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 6
Home Run Baker, Joe DiMaggio, Gabby Hartnett,
Ted Lyons, Ray Schalk, Dazzy Vance

1954 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 3
Bill Dickey, Rabbit Maranville, Bill Terry

1953 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 8
Ed Barrow, Chief Bender, Tom Connolly,
Dizzy Dean, Bill Klem, Al Simmons,
Bobby Wallace, Harry Wright

1952 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 2
Harry Heilmann, Paul Waner

1950 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 2
Jimmie Foxx, Mel Ott

1949 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 3
Mordecai Brown, Charlie Gehringer, Kid Nichols

1948 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 2
Herb Pennock, Pie Traynor

1947 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 4
Mickey Cochrane, Frankie Frisch, Lefty Grove,
Carl Hubbell

1946 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 11
Jesse Burkett, Frank Chance, Jack Chesbro,
Johnny Evers, Clark Griffith, Tommy McCarthy,
Joe McGinnity, Eddie Plank, Joe Tinker,
Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh

1945 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 10
Roger Bresnahan, Dan Brouthers, Fred Clarke,
Jimmy Collins, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy,
Hugh Jennings, King Kelly, Jim O'Rourke,
Wilbert Robinson

1944 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 1
Kenesaw Mountain Landis

1942 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 1
Rogers Hornsby

1939 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 11
Cap Anson, Eddie Collins, Charles Comiskey,
Candy Cummings, Buck Ewing, Lou Gehrig,
Willie Keeler, Hoss Radbourn, George Sisler,
Albert Goodwill Spalding

1938 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 3
Grover Cleveland Alexander, Alexander Joy Cartwright, Henry Chadwick

1937 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 8
Morgan Bulkeley, Ban Johnson, Napoleon Lajoie,
Connie Mack, John McGraw, Tris Speaker,
George Wright, Cy Young

1936 ::: .. ::: INDUCTEES: 5
Ty Cobb, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson,
Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner

[Wassit3]

see also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._(alphabetical)

[ragecage]

All I know is, I love the name Turkey Stearnes.

[RickD]

The HOF should only be made up of NY Yankee players and a select few others!

[RickD]

Actually I am a number guy. 3,000 hits, 500 HR, 300 Wins, 300 Saves!

[metsguy234]

Most overrated HOF= Ozzie Smith

[etothep]

Actually I am a number guy. 3,000 hits, 500 HR, 300 Wins, 300 Saves!

Really? Hall of Famer Jose Mesa?

[Wassit3]

All I know is, I love the name Turkey Stearnes.

lol

[Wassit3]

Actually I am a number guy. 3,000 hits, 500 HR, 300 Wins, 300 Saves!

Lou Gehrig didn't reach any of those so I guess he's out...

[Wassit3]

The HOF should only be made up of NY Yankee players and a select few others!

Rick did you know that The Yankees retired Gehrig's uniform number "4", making him the first player in Major League Baseball history to be accorded that honor?

[Moot]

Ozzie Smith. When I went to the HOF he was the inductee. What a bad year to go.

[robinhoodnik]

The HOF should only be made up of NY Yankee players and a select few others!

New York born maybe? Yastrzemski would still be in.

[HoustonGM]

People that pick Ozzie Smith have no appreciation for just how great that guy was on defense. And they also probably haven't heard of some of the players that really have no business being in the Hall of Fame, but are because they played on the same team as Frankie Frisch and were good friends with him. Frisch headed the Veteran's Committee in the 1970's and elected some very marginal players such as Jesse Haines, Freddie Lindstrom, and George Kelly.

Then there's Rube Marquard, Jack Chesbro, Rick Ferrell, etc. Now, granted, some of these players aren't really "overrated", as most people would admit they don't belong in the Hall, but still...Ozzie Smith is the greatest defensive shortstop to ever play the game. He's not overrated.

I've referenced Baseball Think Factory's Hall of Merit in the other HOF threads. They've caught up to the HOF and have an identical number of players inducted. Below is a list of players that are in the HOF but NOT the HOM, which I think is a good list to start looking for the most overrated. My pick, without putting much thought into it, is Catfish Hunter, a thoroughly average pitcher with 3 very good seasons and little else. Greatly aided by his home park and team.

Pitchers (16): Chief Bender, Jack Chesbro, Andy Cooper, Leon Day, Dizzy Dean, Lefty Gomez, Burleigh Grimes, Jesse Haines, Waite Hoyt, Catfish Hunter, Addie Joss, Rube Marquard, Herb Pennock, Hilton Smith, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis.

Catchers (3): Rick Ferrell, Ernie Lombardi, Ray Schalk.

First basemen (6): Jim Bottomley, Orlando Cepeda, Frank Chance, George Kelly, Tony Perez, Ben Taylor.

Second basemen (4): Johnny Evers, Tony Lazzeri, Bill Mazeroski, Red Schoendienst

Third basemen (5): Ray Dandridge, Judy Johnson, George Kell, Freddie Lindstrom, Pie Traynor.

Shortstops (6): Luis Aparicio, Dave Bancroft, Travis Jackson, Rabbit Maranville, Phil Rizzuto, Joe Tinker.

Left fielders (4): Lou Brock, Kiki Cuyler, Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush.

Center fielders (5): Earle Combs, Hugh Duffy, Kirby Puckett, Lloyd Waner, Hack Wilson.

Right fielders (5): Harry Hooper, Chuck Klein, Tommy McCarthy, Sam Rice, Ross Youngs

[metsguy234]

OK.... lets whip out the Keltner List

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

Nope. He was never really near the best player in baseball.



2. Was he the best player on his team?

78-80 Padres: Nope. Dave Winfield was.
81 Padres: No, unless you don't factor in offense or baserunning at all.
82-84 Cardinals: Nope. Several players were better than him each year.
85-90 Cardinals: Jack Clark (NOT Will Clark ). Vince Coleman. Willie McGee. Terry Pendleton.
91-92 Cardinals: Yes.
93 Cardinals: No. Gregg Jeffries was. Whiten and Zeile were both better then him as well.
94-96 Cardinals: Barely was even playing anymore

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
In the very early 80s- yes

And then came Robin Yount. And Cal Ripken. And then by the end of his career Rodriguez, Jeter, Garciaparra.



4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

Cardinals made the playoffs 4 times while he was there, but he, for lack of a better word, sucked in the playoffs. .236 AVG overall.

5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?

Kind of. Last season of 100+ games was at 38. Retires at 41.

6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

If he wasn't in the Hall of Fame, the answer to this question would be "No"

7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?

1. Luis Aparicio (904) *
2. Rabbit Maranville (901) *
3. Omar Vizquel (885)
4. Nellie Fox (862) *
5. Bert Campaneris (859)
6. Willie Randolph (854)
7. Dave Concepcion (841)
8. Bobby Wallace (838) *
9. Red Schoendienst (827) *
10. Tommy Corcoran (821)


Out of the 10 most similar batters to Smith, 5 are in the HOF (Aparicio, Maranville, Fox, Wallace, Schoendienst- NONE OF THESE FIVE DESERVED IT THOUGH, LOOKING AT THEIR STATS), 1 will almost certainly be in the HOF once he is eligible (Vizquel)
8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

No. Absolutely putrid offense, very good (not amazing) SB numbers, and overrated fielding (Fielding Pct isnt that high)


9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

I don't believe there is.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

Maury Wills has basically the same numbers, and he did it in only 13 seasons.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

Finishes 2nd, 13th, 18th, 20th, 21st, and 22nd in MVP voting throughout his career. Never really deserved the award though, even when he came close.
12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame?

15 ASG's, several as flukes late in his career.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

NO. They'd be way short on offense!

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

Nope

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

From what I know, yes.

[metsguy234]

A player who is incredibly similar statistically to Duane Kuiper shouldn't be in the HOF.