Which of these pitchers belongs in the HOF?

[Wassit3]

I took the Hall of Fame third basemen from Baseball-Almanac, and it seems they haven't updated their listings for a couple years, as Goose Gossage isn't there either.

I don't know enough about Wilson and the Negro Leagues to make an informed evaluation of him, so I won't, but I do trust the Hall of Merit guys who rank him 6th all-time.

I wonder how anyone can truly evaluate Negro leaguers fairly so that is fair enough that you don't try. I wish someone would write a definitive book on how to weight Negro league numbers, at least it would be a starting point...

[HoustonGM]

I wonder how anyone can truly evaluate Negro leaguers fairly so that is fair enough that you don't try. I wish someone would write a definitive book on how to weight Negro league numbers, at least it would be a starting point...

I haven't read the discussions on the Negro Leaguers at the Hall of Merit, but I'm sure there's some nice info there.

[justanewguy]

I wonder how anyone can truly evaluate Negro leaguers fairly so that is fair enough that you don't try. I wish someone would write a definitive book on how to weight Negro league numbers, at least it would be a starting point...

Can Negro League numbers really be weighed though? I can't help but think it was far too isolated to do such a thing. It probably either has been done already, or has been tried. SABR has been around way too long for there to not have been some sort of attempt at it.

I'm not sure there's a way to do it properly... if I were an expert and came up with a system to weigh it, I'd be wary to publish it, for fear of having potentially incorrect information being taken as fact.

With all respect to being politically correct about the issue, I tend to take the glowing accounts of the Negro League players with a grain of salt. Or several grains of salt. There's no doubt they had great players, many of whom could have been right at the top of the majors, but you have to wonder about the majority of the league. Even well after integration, I don't think baseball was ever more than 15 or so percent black. We can say 5 to 15% of MLB would have been made up of Negro Leaguers before Jackie Robinson... and this is a generous guess, as I assume it was more likely for a black person to play baseball as a kid AFTER Jackie Robinson. So imagine, if you will, 5 to 15% of the MLB, that was the size of the Negro Leagues that was capable of playing in the majors. If there were roughly (or even remotely close to) as many Negro League players as MLB players, that would mean no more than probably 15% of the Negro Leaguers were playing at a Major League level. My best guess at the weight of it is, the players were playing in an environment similar to our AAA baseball today, and probably not even up to par with Japanese ball. This makes me a little hesitant to assume that Player X was as good as Babe Ruth, or that Player Y would have been the greatest MLB pitcher ever, especially when the stories about them are anecdotal, and the stats are a little muddy at times.

[justanewguy]

Back to the topic, the outcome of the voting has been interesting. I'd be willing to bet the actual first ballots look a lot like this for those players, with the exception of Greg Maddux, who can't possibly NOT be a unanimous decision. Randy Johnson and Pedro might be as well. Clemens will probably suffer a bit (as he has here) because of steroids, and Glavine will suffer a bit because he was never at the VERY top level.

Thanks for voting, everyone... it's cool to see how it turned out.

[HoustonGM]

with the exception of Greg Maddux, who can't possibly NOT be a unanimous decision.

You realize that this same exact thing could be said for numerous players that weren't inducted unanimously? You'd think that Hank Aaron couldn't possibly not be unanimous. Or Willie Mays. Or Tom Seaver. etc. The fact is there are some voters that just simply won't vote for ANY first-timer no matter what, which is just ridiculous, but nevertheless true. There's some voters that just don't vote for players based purely on personal bias, as well. It'd be great if Maddux was unanimous, but I'd bet anything he won't be.

[justanewguy]

You realize that this same exact thing could be said for numerous players that weren't inducted unanimously? You'd think that Hank Aaron couldn't possibly not be unanimous. Or Willie Mays. Or Tom Seaver. etc. The fact is there are some voters that just simply won't vote for ANY first-timer no matter what, which is just ridiculous, but nevertheless true. There's some voters that just don't vote for players based purely on personal bias, as well. It'd be great if Maddux was unanimous, but I'd bet anything he won't be.

I guess you're right. I just looked at some numbers and it's kinda screwed up... very stupid. Whoever doesn't put Maddux on their first ballot is a certifiable idiot.

But I guess if you include that part, we'll be even more spot-on. But some people voted intentionally like goofs. A voter who shall remain nameless (you can look it up) voted for Cone and Wells but not Johnson, Maddux or Martinez.

Yeah, that was hilarious. A total riot...

[HoustonGM]

For anyone interested, this page includes links to the Hall of Merit discussions on various Negro Leaguers, some of whom they've elected and some who have not (yet) been elected.

[justanewguy]

Heh... "Pee Wee Butts" ... heh.

[Wassit3]

For anyone interested, this page includes links to the Hall of Merit discussions on various Negro Leaguers, some of whom they've elected and some who have not (yet) been elected.

thanks for the link, interesting stuff

[Swampdog]

Agree with justanewguy (post #110) on the negro leagues. I cannot see how they can be objectively rated. They do not belong in the discussions of the greatest players in baseball for that reason. It is, of course, a shame that they were denied the opportunity to play in the majors...but it is what it is.

[bucher34]

Heh... "Pee Wee Butts" ... heh.

Any relation to Marion Butts, former running back of the Chargers in the 90's?

[Wassit3]

You realize that this same exact thing could be said for numerous players that weren't inducted unanimously? You'd think that Hank Aaron couldn't possibly not be unanimous. Or Willie Mays. Or Tom Seaver. etc. The fact is there are some voters that just simply won't vote for ANY first-timer no matter what, which is just ridiculous, but nevertheless true. There's some voters that just don't vote for players based purely on personal bias, as well. It'd be great if Maddux was unanimous, but I'd bet anything he won't be.

I agree and if I recall ruth, wagner, nor cobb, in fact I think no one ever has been unanimous...

[BINGLEBOP]

The forums reflect voters' opinions, I'm sure. Some who posted in this thread said they didn't vote for a player because they "weren't really a fan" (nothing to do with his numbers)... just like writers won't vote for a player because they never liked him.