Mike Mussina to retire

[cartman00000001]

Post of the year?

But, don't you know Ohms? Red Sox fans dismiss ANYTHING that happened before 2004

since Mantle isn't walking through that door, I don't think I have anything to worry about.

[dickay]

Moose was one of the greatest pitchers of his era. I personally don't believe he's done......but if he is who cares hall or not. The guy was and is a very underappreciated talent.

[filihok]

The guy is 40 years old and a millionaire any times over. I'd say he was appreciated

[boomboom]

If Mussina didn't play on a crappy team most of his career, he could have been at the level of Maddux. Mussina was never the same after he got hit in the face from a line drive....when he was with the Oiroles.

[HoustonGM]

If Mussina didn't play on a crappy team most of his career, he could have been at the level of Maddux.

Sorry, but...no.

Mussina was never the same after he got hit in the face from a line drive....when he was with the Oiroles.

I don't see it. From 1997-2001, his ERA+ was between 125 and 142. His first real drop off came after 2003.

[boomboom]

I'll do some research but I remember reading it somewhere like baseballhistory, baseballprospectus or thehardballtimes....thebook? I can't remember where I read it, it was a sight that analyzed mechanics as well as statistics.

[HoustonGM]

I'll do some research but I remember reading it somewhere like baseballhistory, baseballprospectus or thehardballtimes....thebook? I can't remember where I read it, it was a sight that analyzed mechanics as well as statistics.

Well, maybe he was never the same in terms of mechanics...I don't know about that...but he stayed the same for a few years after that in terms of performance..

[boomboom]

I am looking at his stats right now, I don't really see anything but his stats did change in 1998-1999, but it looks like he recovered...

BTW: I never realized that Mussina won 20 games this year, for the first time in his career! I haven't really analyzed this years stats at all yet, which I will soon

[HoustonGM]

I am looking at his stats right now, I don't really see anything but his stats did change in 1998-1999, but it looks like he recovered...

He was better in 1999 than in 1998...

BTW: I never realized that Mussina won 20 games this year, for the first time in his career! I haven't really analyzed this years stats at all yet, which I will soon

Have you paid attention at all to baseball articles? LOL. It was a pretty big story...I think.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

The Angels did better then both teams this last year anyway, so

Yeah, playing against the Rangers, Mariners, and A's .

[ohms_law]

lol

Hey, You're the fan of an AL East team, not me. Tough, deal with it!

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

lol

Hey, You're the fan of an AL East team, not me. Tough, deal with it!

I've got no qualms with being a fan of an AL East team, it only makes the winning sweeter .

[boomboom]

Have you paid attention at all to baseball articles? LOL. It was a pretty big story...I think.

This year I haven't. I really have been a casual fan, besides checking on my BMO team when I could, and doing research for my work. I generally do not have time to read articles like I used to.

Also, my GF controls my TV, I never get to watch Baseball Tonight or SC anymore

[Swampdog]

Just a few comments....on posts in this thread.

Mussina has been a fine pitcher throughout his career. However, he is not in a class with Maddux, Clemens, Johnson, or Martinez. He would be a full notch lower, probably ranked with Glavine, Schilling, Smoltz, and maybe Pettitte. He will make the Hall of Fame. I dont know if he is a "jerk", as someone alleges, but it wont matter if he is. He still makes the Hall. Maybe it was the same poster, Moot, who has claimed that all Red Sox fans are "extreme dicks", so possibly he is an authority on dicks and jerks, I dont know.

Mussina did not play most of his career for "crappy" teams, as is alleged. Quite the contrary. Not counting his first year (1991) when he pitched in 12 games (for a crappy team, yes), his teams have had only 4 losing records in 17 seasons. In fact, his teams won at a .559 clip, or a 91-71 average record over 162 games. This is a typical comment made on behalf of several historical pitchers as well...that they pitched for awful teams, hurting their won-lost records...most notably Nolan Ryan and Bert Blyleven, and it just isnt true. When you actually look at the records you find that their teams were not nearly as bad as people remember. Mussina's teams have been better than those of Clemens, Maddux, or Randy Johnson, and, in fact, better than most significant pitchers in recent history. He was actually blessed to play for such good teams. His teams made his W/L record look better than it could have been.

On other subjects....

I would disagree that the Angels did better than Boston this year. The Angels won 5 more reg season games (in the weakest division in the AL) than the Red Sox did in the strongest division in baseball. Then, when it counted, the Sox eliminated the Angels in the first round of the playoffs. As a Sox fan, I would submit that the Sox accomplished more and did better, overall.

This is for you, "KoolZach" (and for a few others). I realize that you are a child, so I make allowances for that. You (like others) take every opportunity to disparage Boston and its fans. Thats fine. I am pretty sure I speak for most Boston fans when I say that I don't especially care what you think. You seem to imply that Sox fans shouldn't celebrate Boston's titles, yet you obviously enjoy pointing out the success the Yankees have had. You also enjoy saying "Red Sux" and "Muts" (Mets). Wonderful. Be advised that I often hear your "favorite team" referred to as the New York Nazis. Oh, and the New York Junkies as well. So let me clarify things for you, in a language that you might understand.

As a lifelong Sox fan, I do not dismiss anything that happened before 2004, and only a complete imbecile would suggest anything so inane. I relish the fact that Boston won the first WS, and were the first team to win 5...all within 20 years (while the "Nazis" couldn't win anything). The Red Sox have a long, storied and colorful history. You probably are not aware of the fact that the New York Junkies built a 40 year dynasty in the 20's with players they pirated from the Red Sox. Not just Babe Ruth, but several other key players as well. Their rich owner, Ruppert, took advantage of a fool named Harry Frazee (Sox owner) and the result was that the best franchise in baseball, the Red Sox, was gutted and quickly became one of the worst. It took over a decade to rebuild.

Of course, thats ancient history. More recently, since the fall of the Yankee Empire in the 60's, things haven't been so bad. While NY won nothing to speak of from 1965-1975, the Sox won 2 pennants and played in 2 great World Series (which, of course, they lost in 7 games). The Sox did have a winning record every year from 1967 through 1982. Later on, the Sox won 3 division titles (and lost yet another memorable 7 game WS) from 1986-1990. Conversely, the Yanks had a losing record 4 straight years, 1989-1992. The best year was 1990, when Boston won the division while the Yankees gloriously finished 67-95, good for last place.

So NY regrouped and won 4 WS titles at the end of that decade, while the Sox have been the dominant team in this century. Now....how's that for dismissing everything before 2004?

And ummm....like some others, I claim 8 WS titles for Boston, not 7. They won by forfeit in 1904 when the Giants were too gutless to play them. Even if you only recognize 7 titles, there are just 3 other teams that have won more, so I guess that Boston hasn't done badly overall. New York did have the greatest dynasty in baseball history, over about 45 years 1920-1964. They had such a string of great players...Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Berra, Ford, Mantle (and many other lesser, but still great players)....of such incredible talent. Of course, that's all in the past. With luck, the New York fans will continue to experience a championship drought for decades to come. It will be interesting to see how many Yankees fans exist in forums like this if New York goes into a tailspin and finishes last a few times.

Boston fans can take solace in the fact that the greatest dynasty in sports was not the Yankees. It was the Boston Celtics. The Celts won 8 straight championships...and won 9 in 10 years, and 11 in 13 years, and 13 in 20 years. All figures that no team can match, in any major American sport.

This is what happens when you wake up at 4:00 am and cant sleep.

[actionjackson]

Awesome post Swampdog.

The only thing Hall of Famey about Mussina is his jerkishness. Of course, there are a lot of jerks in the Hallowed Hall, so I'm sure he'll fit right in, should he get the call.

As you can see the "jerk" post was mine not Moot's. I envision Mike Mussina's HOF candidacy like the typical six year old envisions a steaming plate of lima beans. I admit I'm allowing my Blue Jay Blue to bleed through on this one, but the BBWAA is far from objective, and if they aren't held to a standard of objectivity when selecting players, why should I, the fan, be?

My revulsion for Mr. Mussina stems from two famous incidents in Blue Jay history where he showed his true colours. The first was the All-Star Game in 1993, held in Baltimore. In 1993, the Orioles were being careful with him due to arm trouble of some sort, sustained around June 22 and not fully recovered from until August 20. Since the All-Star game is held in July, that would mean he was still fragile at the time of the game. Prior to the game, Cito went to tell Mike that due to his injury, he would not be pitching in the game barring extra innings (don't know why extra innings would make a difference with the injury, but whatever that's what was said). This is one of Cito's greatest assets (he's not a great in-game manager, that's for sure), his ability to communicate with his players and for that night Moose was his player. I guess Moose was pissed at this decision, although he probably should have taken it up with Orioles' management because I would assume they would have had the final say on this and as hosts, they would've been somewhere in the building.

He had 8 innings to stew down in the bullpen and then decided to make his move sometime in the bottom of the 8th/ top of the 9th when, without being asked to, he got up to warm up in the bullpen. The hometown crowd went nuts and started chanting: "Moose" while Cito fumed on the bench. When Cito went to Duane Ward (one of his own) the fans were furious chanting: "Cito sucks". It got so bad that after the game Cito received death threats, which I'm sure he took seriously, having been a one-time roommate of Hank Aaron. And what of the Stanford grad after the game: "I was trying to get some work in between starts." A gutless, cowardly, pre-meditated, classless act if ever there was one and don't think for a second he didn't know how the fans would react. Cito is one of the most well respected, classy managers to ever set foot on a baseball field.

One of the most well respected and classy men ever to grace the broadcast booth was being honoured in the summer of 2004 for his amazing consecutive games streak and his incredible contributions to baseball in Canada. See my signature for more about Tom Cheek, but this was his day. The extremely moving ceremony happened to go 15 minutes longer than expected, but what's 15 minutes when you're honouring 27 and 1/2 years of consecutive games and general broadcasting excellence, not to mention surviving a brain tumour (at the time)? To their credit Joe Torre and the rest of the Yankees were up on the top step politely applauding and showing their respect for Tom's achievements. A certain starting pitcher for the Yankees, who was warming up in the bullpen was upset about his schedule being upset. In spite of this inconvenience to his schedule, he still led 2-1 going to the 7th, when the Jays erupted for 5 and wound up winning the game. After the game Mussina complained about the ceremony going 15 minutes too long and said something to the effect of it having thrown him out of his rhythm. What about the first six innings, whiner? Never mind the fact that a Yankee was complaining about a pre-game ceremony lasting too long!

Listen, he accomplished some amazing things as a ballplayer, but that won't prevent me from openly rooting against Mike Mussina, the human being. If his day for the Hall should ever come, you won't hear me cheering his inclusion. I might even boo it and I doubt I'll be alone.