Pedroia named AL MVP

[gosensgo101]

But, every year, there's always that discussion in one sport. So and so's the best player, but he didn't make the playoffs/he had a great supporting cast, etc. It'd be simpler to just split it into two awards, or redefine MVP.

[filihok]

Because there's 28 individual people voting with different opinions?

Maybe I'm as stupid as a rock, but I still cannot understand at all how the player that performs the best in a given season is not the player that provided his team with the most value.

Yes you can. Because you said this.

When discussing value, players need to be compared to those at their position. A .280/.350/.450 season wouldn't be anything special for a first basemen, but it'd be one of the better second base seasons in the league (assuming all other things were equal). In the simplest terms, it's harder to come by a second basemen with Pedroia's ability than it is to come by a first basemen with Youkilis's ability, therefore, Pedroia is more valuable.

So you acknowledge that value has a subjective quality to it.

Take the BM AI for example. It may jump at a chance to trade a C shortstop for a C+ right fielder. But, if it already had a B RF and now has a D SS the trade didn't have value. In this instance an average shortstop would have more value than an above average right fielder.

Pedroia gave the Red Sox something they were lacking this year with Papi and Manny not producing as expected, that's why he got a lot of votes.

I won't-can't-explain every vote but I know you understand that value is different in different situations

[gosensgo101]

I won't-can't-explain every vote but I know you understand that value is different in different situations

Especially the 5th place vote for Jason Bartlett.

[RedsoxRockies]

Yea, I don't see a difference between Value and Being a better player....

[filihok]

Especially the 5th place vote for Jason Bartlett.

He was the missing piece for the come outta nowhere 2008 Tampa Rays???

They had a shitty SS in 2007 and an average SS in 2008 and look where it got them

[gosensgo101]

If a player goes 300/20/100 on a team with a bad supporting cast, but makes the playoffs, he's more valuable than the 330/40/130 guy on the awesome team with awesome supporting cast.

Without the first player, that team doesn't make the playoffs. As for the second player, his team could go without.

[HoustonGM]

So you acknowledge that value has a subjective quality to it.

Take the BM AI for example. It may jump at a chance to trade a C shortstop for a C+ right fielder. But, if it already had a B RF and now has a D SS the trade didn't have value. In this instance an average shortstop would have more value than an above average right fielder.

I don't understand how position is subjective.

I think that Pedroia was a better player this year than Youkilis, hence, I think he was more valuable. Comparing the two players purely offensively without regard for anything else, yes, Youkilis was a better hitter, but that's a poor way to analyze the best OVERALL player. When analyzing which players, overall, were better, many more factors need to go into it - position, defense, baserunning, etc.

And while your example is accurate, I don't see how that's related to an MVP discussion. It's related to a discussion of evaluating players and fitting needs, but that's not the same type of player evaluation as an MVP award.

Pedroia gave the Red Sox something they were lacking this year with Papi and Manny not producing as expected, that's why he got a lot of votes.

I don't disagree with the Pedroia choice (Well, technically, I do, as I had him 5th on my ballot, but it's a fine choice considering how close all the top candidates were). However, regardless of how Manny and Ortiz played, I'd still have Pedroia in the same slot on my MVP ballot (barring Manny or Ortiz having played better than Pedroia).

I won't-can't-explain every vote but I know you understand that value is different in different situations

When discussing which players provided more value to their teams than other players, I do not understand why the performance of those players' teammates should affect the discussion.



Anyway, I'm curious about something.

How the hell does .326 BA, .376, .493, 17 home runs, and 81 RBI's.

BEAT

.312, .390, .569, 29 home runs, and 115 RBI's. (Kevin Youkilis)

Question.

For their careers, who was the better player:

.303/.369/.516, 332 HR, 1287 RBI
.285/.344/.452, 282 HR, 1061 RBI

[HoustonGM]

He was the missing piece for the come outta nowhere 2008 Tampa Rays???

They had a shitty SS in 2007 and an average SS in 2008 and look where it got them

I know you're not advocating that position, but that's horrible logic. It's crediting their entire turnaround to one positional upgrade.

There's also this...They had an eh 3B in 2007, and a great 3B in 2008. And they had a shitty CF in 2007, and a very good CF in 2008...etc. Using that logic, there's maybe 5 other players on the Rays that would've been a better 5th place vote than Jason Bartlett.

If a player goes 300/20/100 on a team with a bad supporting cast, but makes the playoffs, he's more valuable than the 330/40/130 guy on the awesome team with awesome supporting cast.

Without the first player, that team doesn't make the playoffs. As for the second player, his team could go without.

Why should the performance of a player's teammates matter for an individual award?

[filihok]

And while your example is accurate, I don't see how that's related to an MVP discussion. It's related to a discussion of evaluating players and fitting needs, but that's not the same type of player evaluation as an MVP award.

By your definition of 'value'.

It's the Most Valuable Player.

When discussing which players provided more value to their teams than other players, I do not understand why the performance of those players' teammates should affect the discussion

That's the way a lot of people look at it. What did MVP Candidate bring the team that they were lacking otherwise.

Not trying to change your mind, but you said you didn't understand. I'm just trying to explain. If you meant 'I don't agree', that's fine.

[koolzach1]

I don't understand how position is subjective.

I think that Pedroia was a better player this year than Youkilis, hence, I think he was more valuable. Comparing the two players purely offensively without regard for anything else, yes, Youkilis was a better hitter, but that's a poor way to analyze the best OVERALL player. When analyzing which players, overall, were better, many more factors need to go into it - position, defense, baserunning, etc.

And while your example is accurate, I don't see how that's related to an MVP discussion. It's related to a discussion of evaluating players and fitting needs, but that's not the same type of player evaluation as an MVP award.


I don't disagree with the Pedroia choice (Well, technically, I do, as I had him 5th on my ballot, but it's a fine choice considering how close all the top candidates were). However, regardless of how Manny and Ortiz played, I'd still have Pedroia in the same slot on my MVP ballot (barring Manny or Ortiz having played better than Pedroia).


When discussing which players provided more value to their teams than other players, I do not understand why the performance of those players' teammates should affect the discussion.



Anyway, I'm curious about something.


Question.

For their careers, who was the better player:

.303/.369/.516, 332 HR, 1287 RBI
.285/.344/.452, 282 HR, 1061 RBI

I'd probably take the first guy, but it really depends on their respective era.

[justanewguy]

.303/.369/.516, 332 HR, 1287 RBI
.285/.344/.452, 282 HR, 1061 RBI

The second guy is better because he played 2B and didn't piss on his own hands.

[HoustonGM]

I'd probably take the first guy, but it really depends on their respective era.

Now what if I told you that the first guy was Moises Alou and the second was Ryne Sandberg?

The second guy is better because he played 2B and didn't piss on his own hands.

LOL.

[BINGLEBOP]

"Ridiculous! Ryan Howard was robbed! He should have won this one too!"

Somebody's humorous comment on the ESPN boards regarding Pedroia winning the AL MVP.

[dickay]

Wow, you guys have TOTALLY missed the point. I don't agree with houston regarding the different position as to why Pedey was taken over Yuke. I understand his point, but I think it's easily countered with the fact Yuke plays near flawless defense at 1st and 3rd when he had to sub for Lowell. That in itself was EXTREMELY valuable and should have pushed Yuke over Pedey except for the real reason Pedey won the MVP. And that was unquestionably;

For the Red Sox, particularly after the departure of Ramirez, Pedroia's true value was most evident in his versatility, primarily at the plate. Late in the season, when Youkilis was temporarily sidelined, Pedroia batted cleanup for five games and went an absurd 12-for-18 (a .667 average) with four doubles, two home runs, seven RBIs, and six runs scored; he slugged 1.222 and posted an OPS of 1.889, fueling his candidacy for the MVP award and leaving little doubt that he is a big-time player with a big credentials.

In the second half of the season, Pedroia batted .345 with an OPS of .949. In August and September, when MVPs are typically won and lost, he batted a combined .353 with a .995 OPS.

Pedroia was as 'clutch' as they came down the 'stretch' when needed most. I haven't been able to find his September statistics but I have heard them on the radio and they are sick. At a time when they were fighting for a playoff birth, Pedroia stepped up at a much larger clip than Youk. I'd love to see the second half stats side by side...but I couldn't find them.

This is the real reason why Pedroia edged Youk. It doesn't have to do with positions.

[kenny1234]

I haven't been able to find his September statistics but I have heard them on the radio and they are sick. .

By Day/Month AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
April 111 13 34 10 0 1 13 9 0 13 3 0 .306 .352 .423 .775
May 123 19 32 5 0 3 15 5 1 11 3 0 .260 .295 .374 .669
June 101 21 36 7 0 4 9 7 3 6 3 0 .356 .407 .545 .952
July 103 19 36 9 1 1 11 8 1 7 2 1 .350 .398 .485 .883
August 115 33 43 10 1 6 20 11 0 9 5 0 .374 .425 .635 1.060
September 92 12 30 12 0 2 15 10 2 5 4 0 .326 .393 .522 .915

Courtesy of ESPN. So September was good, August was far better, June was better.