This year's Hall of Fame ballot

[RedsoxRockies]

I agree with Raines, not on Baines and Parker.

Not even if you add in Parker's glove?

[HoustonGM]

Not even if you add in Parker's glove?

I include everything when evaluating players.

Parker had a very good arm. His overall defensive ability wasn't anything special (-47 FRAA for career, two excellent seasons in 1975 and 1977 and a good season in 1983, below average otherwise).

[RedsoxRockies]

I include everything when evaluating players.

Parker had a very good arm. His overall defensive ability wasn't anything special (-47 FRAA for career, two excellent seasons in 1975 and 1977 and a good season in 1983, below average otherwise).

Where do you find all these sabremetric fielding stats for players from like 20 years ago? Or are you calculating it yourself?

[HoustonGM]

Dave Parker is Jim Rice with a little more career value. Excellent peak, but not historically great to get them in solely on peak value (such as Koufax/Pedro). Very good career, but not Hall-worthy. There's a boatload of players in the Dave Parker/Jim Rice range.

[justanewguy]

I agree with Raines, not on Baines and Parker.

I totally agree.

Raines (as I said above) was the best pure leadoff hitter of his era, and a career OBP of .385 with 808 career steals makes him a total standout. His steal success rate is also remarkable. I doubt Raines ends up making the Hall, although he deserves it.

But Baines and Parker were just not good enough to be in the Hall. They were very good players, but nothing earth-shattering, and were outshined by a host of significantly better hitters in their era.

I'd be surprised if any of the three will make the real life Hall.

[HoustonGM]

Where do you find all these sabremetric fielding stats for players from like 20 years ago? Or are you calculating it yourself?

Baseball Prospectus tracks Fielding Runs Above Average (and Above Replacement). On their site search for a player, view his DT card, and there's a ton of stats there.

FRAA is far from a great measuring stick for defense, but it's the most easily accessible. The best defensive measurements don't really go back that far.

[HoustonGM]

I'd be surprised if any of the three will make the real life Hall.

Yep. And it's truly baffling. Jim Rice is going to get in this year. It'd be incredibly out-of-line with history if he doesn't, considering how close he was last year. Now, what in the heck is the argument for Jim Rice being in, but not Dave Parker?

Raines was a fantastic player with a great peak, and quite possibly the best non-Rickey leadoff man ever. Raines is more than qualified and it's a shame that he faces a real tough uphill battle.

[RedsoxRockies]

Yep. And it's truly baffling. Jim Rice is going to get in this year. It'd be incredibly out-of-line with history if he doesn't, considering how close he was last year. Now, what in the heck is the argument for Jim Rice being in, but not Dave Parker?

Raines was a fantastic player with a great peak, and quite possibly the best non-Rickey leadoff man ever. Raines is more than qualified and it's a shame that he faces a real tough uphill battle.

He could get in later on, I feel he will top 5%

[HoustonGM]

He could get in later on, I feel he will top 5%

Who? Raines? Yeah. He got somewhere in the vicinity of 20% last year, but like I said, it's an uphill battle.

[RedsoxRockies]

Who? Raines? Yeah. He got somewhere in the vicinity of 20% last year, but like I said, it's an uphill battle.

Unless all the BBWAA mysteriously dies...

[HoustonGM]

Re: Mussina,

Joe Sheehan's article at BP today got me thinking. Here's what he said about Mussina:

Mike Mussina: But for three disastrous starts in August of 2007, Mussina would be perceived much differently. The three outings, in which he allowed 25 hits and 20 runs in 9 2/3 innings, destroyed his 2007 pitching line and gave rise to the idea that he was done. Prior to those starts, he was having a reasonable season for a 38-year-old: a 4.50 ERA, 3/1 K/BB, 5 2/3 IP/start. After them, he made five appearances with a 3.49 ERA, and of course, followed that with his strong 2008 season. Those starts happened, and you can't just ignore them, but it's clear that the hysteria that accompanied them was disproportionate, and that they signaled not the end of Mussina's career, but a trough in an extended stretch of effective pitching. Hitting the market at 40, he's a six-inning starter who doesn't walk batters and would he helped by a big park and a good defense. Forget 300 wins; in the right situation, Mussina could have Jamie Moyer's forties and win 320. A move to the NL would help.

Emphasis mine. Of course, it all hinges on Mussina's personal decision, but if he does return, and puts himself in a favorable situation (NL, pitcher's park, good defense), Sheehan's absolutely correct that Mussina could be far from finished.

[justanewguy]

Raines was a fantastic player with a great peak, and quite possibly the best non-Rickey leadoff man ever. Raines is more than qualified and it's a shame that he faces a real tough uphill battle.

In my mind, he's the best leadoff man ever, non-Rickey division. His consistency especially makes him stand
out in a role which usually sees players with short shelf lives. His career numbers are incredible, and he was a better player than a few hall players who had 3000 hits. Playing in Montreal definitely prevented him from getting the exposure he deserved.

Re: Mussina,

Joe Sheehan's article at BP today got me thinking. Here's what he said about Mussina:

Emphasis mine. Of course, it all hinges on Mussina's personal decision, but if he does return, and puts himself in a favorable situation (NL, pitcher's park, good defense), Sheehan's absolutely correct that Mussina could be far from finished.

For me, if Mussina could give 2 or 3 more GOOD seasons, it would push him over the fence to get into the Hall. It'd be based mostly on career totals for me. This is even once instance in which I'd look at wins. A guy who was such a horse for so long (11 seasons of 200+ innings) and pitched so well... this is where wins can show something. He has a lot of decisions period, which speaks to the ability for the ball to be put in HIS hands to allow only him win or lose the game. So 300 wins plus a career with added value... these things would make him a lock in my mind.

I wouldn't even mind seeing the Dodgers put some money on the table for this guy, even though I should be wary of such a deal as a Dodger fan...

[HoustonGM]

In my mind, he's the best leadoff man ever, non-Rickey division.

I wouldn't disagree. I just said "quite possibly" because I haven't actually examined the leadoff hitters as a whole. Off the top of my head though, yes, he's second to Rickey.

I wouldn't even mind seeing the Dodgers put some money on the table for this guy, even though I should be wary of such a deal as a Dodger fan...

That actually would be a solid place for Moose, in terms of solidifying his Hall case and in terms of the Dodgers needs.

[justanewguy]

I wouldn't disagree. I just said "quite possibly" because I haven't actually examined the leadoff hitters as a whole. Off the top of my head though, yes, he's second to Rickey.

In terms of what we now know a leadoff hitter is "supposed to be," I can't think of anyone better. I also keep calling him the "best pure leadoff hitter of his era" because Rickey was more of a 2-4 hitter with TONS of speed and the ability to get on base at an insane rate, and because other eras may have had better leadoff hitters based on their own qualifications.

That actually would be a solid place for Moose, in terms of solidifying his Hall case and in terms of the Dodgers needs.

An excellent veteran pitcher that you can be almost certain will give you close to 200 innings... it'd be great. My guess is that the Dodgers pick him up or pick up Johnson, and round it out all out with another vet of the same mold but with a lower profile and fewer career achievements. Their money will be focused on the offense, and they'll have some young starters with very high upsides mixed with solid, relatively healthy and relatively cheap vets to carry the rotation.

[HoustonGM]

Interesting article here regarding the Hall of Fame, a pitcher discussed in this thread, and a pitcher I think everybody agrees is a HOFer.