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Thread: Greg Maddux

  1. #1
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    Greg Maddux

    I have to voice my opinion here
    Greg maddux has to be labeled the greatest pitcher of our time
    Code:
    Year Ag Tm  Lg  W   L   G   GS  CG SHO  GF SV   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP  WP  BFP  IBB  BK  ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
    +--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
     1986 20 CHC NL   2   4   6   5   1   0   1  0   31.0   44   20   19   3   11   20   1   2   144   2   0  5.52  4.02   73 1.774
     1987 21 CHC NL   6  14  30  27   1   1   2  0  155.7  181  111   97  17   74  101   4   4   701  13   7  5.61  4.25   76 1.638
     1988 22 CHC NL  18   8  34  34   9   3   0  0  249.0  230   97   88  13   81  140   9   3  1047  16   6  3.18  3.63  114 1.249 AS
     1989 23 CHC NL  19  12  35  35   7   1   0  0  238.3  222   90   78  13   82  135   6   5  1002  13   3  2.95  3.78  128 1.276 CYA-3
     1990 24 CHC NL  15  15  35  35   8   2   0  0  237.0  242  116   91  11   71  144   4   3  1011  10   3  3.46  4.10  119 1.321
     1991 25 CHC NL  15  11  37  37   7   2   0  0  263.0  232  113   98  18   66  198   6   6  1070   9   3  3.35  3.87  115 1.133
     1992 26 CHC NL  20  11  35  35   9   4   0  0  268.0  201   68   65   7   70  199  14   5  1061   7   0  2.18  3.61  166 1.011 MVP-11,CYA-1,AS
     1993 27 ATL NL  20  10  36  36   8   1   0  0  267.0  228   85   70  14   52  197   6   5  1064   7   1  2.36  4.05  171 1.049 MVP-13,CYA-1
     1994 28 ATL NL  16   6  25  25  10   3   0  0  202.0  150   44   35   4   31  156   6   3   774   3   1  1.56  4.22  271 0.896 MVP-5,CYA-1,AS
     1995 29 ATL NL  19   2  28  28  10   3   0  0  209.7  147   39   38   8   23  181   4   1   785   3   0  1.63  4.27  262 0.811 MVP-3,CYA-1,AS
     1996 30 ATL NL  15  11  35  35   5   1   0  0  245.0  225   85   74  11   28  172   3   4   978  11   0  2.72  4.39  162 1.033 CYA-5,AS
     1997 31 ATL NL  19   4  33  33   5   2   0  0  232.7  200   58   57   9   20  177   6   0   893   6   0  2.20  4.17  189 0.946 MVP-12,CYA-2,AS
     1998 32 ATL NL  18   9  34  34   9   5   0  0  251.0  201   75   62  13   45  204   7   4   987  10   0  2.22  4.15  187 0.980 CYA-4,AS
     1999 33 ATL NL  19   9  33  33   4   0   0  0  219.3  258  103   87  16   37  136   4   1   940   8   0  3.57  4.48  125 1.345
     2000 34 ATL NL  19   9  35  35   6   3   0  0  249.3  225   91   83  19   42  190  10   1  1012  12   2  3.00  4.59  153 1.071 MVP-12,CYA-3,AS
     2001 35 ATL NL  17  11  34  34   3   3   0  0  233.0  220   86   79  20   27  173   7   2   927  10   0  3.05  4.45  146 1.060
     2002 36 ATL NL  16   6  34  34   0   0   0  0  199.3  194   67   58  14   45  118   4   1   820   7   0  2.62  4.16  159 1.199
     2003 37 ATL NL  16  11  36  36   1   0   0  0  218.3  225  112   96  24   33  124   8   3   901   7   0  3.96  4.29  108 1.182
     2004 38 CHC NL  16  11  33  33   2   1   0  0  212.7  218  103   95  35   33  151   9   2   872   4   0  4.02  4.40  109 1.180
     2005 39 CHC NL  13  15  35  35   3   0   0  0  225.0  239  112  106  29   36  136   7   8   936   4   0  4.24  4.40  104 1.222
     2006 40 TOT NL  15  14  34  34   0   0   0  0  210.0  219  109   98  20   37  117   0   0   862   7   0  4.20  4.58  109 1.219
             CHC NL   9  11  22  22   0   0   0  0  136.3  153   78   71  14   23   81   0   0   572   3   0  4.69  4.63   99 1.291
             LAD NL   6   3  12  12   0   0   0  0   73.7   66   31   27   6   14   36   0   0   290   4   0  3.30  4.49  136 1.086
     2007 41 SDP NL  14  11  34  34   1   0   0  0  198.0  221   92   91  14   25  104   6   5   830   3   0  4.14  4.04   98 1.242
     2008 42 TOT NL   8  13  33  33   0   0   0  0  194.0  204  105   91  21   30   98   6   2   804   5   2  4.22  4.02   95 1.206
             SDP NL   6   9  26  26   0   0   0  0  153.3  161   80   68  16   26   80   5   2   638   4   2  3.99  3.91   98 1.220
             LAD NL   2   4   7   7   0   0   0  0   40.7   43   25   23   5    4   18   1   0   166   1   0  5.09  4.42   87 1.156
    +--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
     23 Yr WL% .610 355 227 744 740 109  35   3  0 5008.3 4726 1981 1756 353  999 3371 137  70 20421 177  28  3.16  4.16  132 1.143
    +--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
     162 Game Avg    16  10  34  33   4   1   0  0  229.3  216   90   80  16   45  154   6   3   935   8   1  3.16  4.16  132 1.143
     Career High     20  15  37  37  10   5   2  0  268.0  258  116  106  35   82  204  14   8  1070  16   7  1.56  4.59  271 0.811
    Despite the steroid aligations... lets throw them out he window at the moment
    Clemens
    Code:
    1984 21 BOS AL   9   4  21  20   5   1   0  0  133.3  146   67   64  13   29  126   2   4   575   3   0  4.32  4.20   97 1.313 RoY-6
     1985 22 BOS AL   7   5  15  15   3   1   0  0   98.3   83   38   36   5   37   74   3   1   407   0   3  3.29  4.32  131 1.220
     1986 23 BOS AL  24   4  33  33  10   1   0  0  254.0  179   77   70  21   67  238   4  11   997   0   3  2.48  4.19  169 0.969 MVP-1,CYA-1,AS
     1987 24 BOS AL  20   9  36  36  18   7   0  0  281.7  248  100   93  19   83  256   9   4  1157   4   3  2.97  4.56  154 1.175 MVP-19,CYA-1
     1988 25 BOS AL  18  12  35  35  14   8   0  0  264.0  217   93   86  17   62  291   6   4  1063   4   7  2.93  4.13  141 1.057 CYA-6,AS
     1989 26 BOS AL  17  11  35  35   8   3   0  0  253.3  215  101   88  20   93  230   8   7  1044   5   0  3.13  4.13  132 1.216
     1990 27 BOS AL  21   6  31  31   7   4   0  0  228.3  193   59   49   7   54  209   7   8   920   3   0  1.93  4.11  213 1.082 MVP-3,CYA-2,AS
     1991 28 BOS AL  18  10  35  35  13   4   0  0  271.3  219   93   79  15   65  241   5   6  1077  12   0  2.62  4.31  164 1.047 MVP-10,CYA-1,AS
     1992 29 BOS AL  18  11  32  32  11   5   0  0  246.7  203   80   66  11   62  208   9   3   989   5   0  2.41  4.23  175 1.074 MVP-14,CYA-3,AS
     1993 30 BOS AL  11  14  29  29   2   1   0  0  191.7  175   99   95  17   67  160  11   3   808   4   1  4.46  4.64  104 1.263
     1994 31 BOS AL   9   7  24  24   3   1   0  0  170.7  124   62   54  15   71  168   4   4   692   1   0  2.85  5.05  177 1.143
     1995 32 BOS AL  10   5  23  23   0   0   0  0  140.0  141   70   65  15   60  132  14   9   623   0   0  4.18  4.86  116 1.436
     1996 33 BOS AL  10  13  34  34   6   2   0  0  242.7  216  106   98  19  106  257   4   8  1032   2   1  3.63  5.05  139 1.327
     1997 34 TOR AL  21   7  34  34   9   3   0  0  264.0  204   65   60   9   68  292  12   4  1044   1   0  2.05  4.53  221 1.030 MVP-10,CYA-1,AS
     1998 35 TOR AL  20   6  33  33   5   3   0  0  234.7  169   78   69  11   88  271   7   6   961   0   0  2.65  4.61  174 1.095 MVP-11,CYA-1,AS
     1999 36 NYY AL  14  10  30  30   1   1   0  0  187.7  185  101   96  20   90  163   9   8   822   0   0  4.60  4.73  103 1.465
     2000 37 NYY AL  13   8  32  32   1   0   0  0  204.3  184   96   84  26   84  188  10   2   878   0   1  3.70  4.82  130 1.312 CYA-6
     2001 38 NYY AL  20   3  33  33   0   0   0  0  220.3  205   94   86  19   72  213   5  14   918   1   0  3.51  4.48  128 1.257 MVP-8,CYA-1,AS
     2002 39 NYY AL  13   6  29  29   0   0   0  0  180.0  172   94   87  18   63  192   7  14   768   6   0  4.35  4.42  102 1.306
     2003 40 NYY AL  17   9  33  33   1   1   0  0  211.7  199   99   92  24   58  190   5   5   878   1   0  3.91  4.39  112 1.214 AS
     2004 41 HOU NL  18   4  33  33   0   0   0  0  214.3  169   76   71  15   79  218   6   5   878   5   0  2.98  4.36  146 1.157 MVP-8,CYA-1,AS
     2005 42 HOU NL  13   8  32  32   1   0   0  0  211.3  151   51   44  11   62  185   3   3   838   5   1  1.87  4.23  226 1.008 MVP-22,CYA-3,AS
     2006 43 HOU NL   7   6  19  19   0   0   0  0  113.3   89   34   29   7   29  102   4   3   451   1   0  2.30  4.45  193 1.041
     2007 44 NYY AL   6   6  18  17   0   0   0  0   99.0   99   52   46   9   31   68   5   7   420   0   0  4.18  4.47  107 1.313
    +--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
     24 Yr WL% .658 354 184 709 707 118  46   0  0 4916.7 4185 1885 1707 363 1580 4672 159 143 20240  63  20  3.12  4.46  143 1.173
    +--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
     162 Game Avg    17   8  34  33   5   2   0  0  236.0  200   90   81  17   75  224   7   6   971   3   0  3.12  4.46  143 1.173
     Career High     24  14  36  36  18   8   0  0  281.7  248  106   98  26  106  292  14  14  1157  12   7  1.87  5.05  226 0.969
    The Constitution was designed by the founders to save people from themselves. It never fails to amaze me how good of a job they did
    haveacigar
    My Finest work!!!
    Death don't want ya... But the Lotus do... so bring ya wicked shlt we gonna bring ours too!!!
    ><((((> .`.><((((> .`.><((((>
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  2. #2
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    Re: Greg Maddux

    You REALLY can make a case for 1 guy or the other but the more you look at both of them... they are REMARKABLE similar. Clemens had more walks and more strikeouts which is expected of a Power pitchers but look at the overall #'s Both were on good teams most of their career.
    dispite all the k's (and im sure its part homerisim) I just think Maddux was moer domminant
    The Constitution was designed by the founders to save people from themselves. It never fails to amaze me how good of a job they did
    haveacigar
    My Finest work!!!
    Death don't want ya... But the Lotus do... so bring ya wicked shlt we gonna bring ours too!!!
    ><((((> .`.><((((> .`.><((((>
    .`.><((((> .`.><((((>.`.><((((>.`.><((((>


  3. #3
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    Re: Greg Maddux

    I would put maddux just above Clemens


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  4. #4
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    Re: Greg Maddux

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies View Post
    I would put maddux just above Clemens
    a HAIR... but a hair nonetheless
    The Constitution was designed by the founders to save people from themselves. It never fails to amaze me how good of a job they did
    haveacigar
    My Finest work!!!
    Death don't want ya... But the Lotus do... so bring ya wicked shlt we gonna bring ours too!!!
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  5. #5
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    Re: Greg Maddux

    Maddux was more consistent, and his best seasons were better than Clemens' best.

    I'd take Maddux, but it's damn close.

  6. #6
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    Re: Greg Maddux

    Considering the allegations, you have to put Maddux clearly ahead. If the allegations aren't true (LMFAO......no chance), then it would be too close to call.

  7. #7
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    Re: Greg Maddux

    It's very close. Clemens had a slightly better ERA, despite pitching in leagues which overall had a slighty higher ERA, but Maddox had a better WHIP.

  8. #8
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    Re: Greg Maddux

    This debate has been done here several times before. They were both great, among the top 10 of all time, in my opinion. Maybe top 5. By any objective view, Clemens was better.

  9. #9
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    Re: Greg Maddux

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampdog View Post
    By any objective view, Clemens was better.
    That's a pretty strong statement - though I can't find any statistic to refute it - other than maybe that Maddux had a higher peak.

    Very close, anyway. For me, Maddux wins because I enjoy watching him pitch more than Clemens. But that is as far from objective as you can get.

  10. #10
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    Re: Greg Maddux

    Quote Originally Posted by kenny1234 View Post
    That's a pretty strong statement - though I can't find any statistic to refute it - other than maybe that Maddux had a higher peak.
    Maddux did have the higher peak, and he also had a sustained peak of excellence (1992-2002). Clemens had a "peak and valley" type career, where he'd post ridiculously good seasons, followed by some good but nothing special seasons, and then go back to greatness, etc. Maddux had a much more standard career path. He went from solid, to amazing for a 10 year stretch, and back to solid.

    Really, though, there's not much to debate here. Both players were all-time great pitchers.

  11. #11
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    Re: Greg Maddux

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonGM View Post
    Maddux did have the higher peak, and he also had a sustained peak of excellence (1992-2002). Clemens had a "peak and valley" type career, where he'd post ridiculously good seasons, followed by some good but nothing special seasons, and then go back to greatness, etc. Maddux had a much more standard career path. He went from solid, to amazing for a 10 year stretch, and back to solid.

    Really, though, there's not much to debate here. Both players were all-time great pitchers.
    Excelent
    The Constitution was designed by the founders to save people from themselves. It never fails to amaze me how good of a job they did
    haveacigar
    My Finest work!!!
    Death don't want ya... But the Lotus do... so bring ya wicked shlt we gonna bring ours too!!!
    ><((((> .`.><((((> .`.><((((>
    .`.><((((> .`.><((((>.`.><((((>.`.><((((>


  12. #12
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    Re: Greg Maddux

    I just hope Maddux can dig down and find a little extra left in the tank for the rest of the playoffs. And share everything he knows about pitching with Billingsley, Kershaw, Broxton, et al.

  13. #13
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    Re: Greg Maddux

    If you take steriods out, then it is a hair by Maddux.

    For Clemens... Peak and valley has to do with steriods.... (I assume)

  14. #14
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    Re: Greg Maddux

    Quote Originally Posted by kenny1234 View Post
    That's a pretty strong statement - though I can't find any statistic to refute it - other than maybe that Maddux had a higher peak.
    There's no statistic to "prove" it either. There's no "objectively clear winner" when it comes to Maddux vs. Clemens.

    If I had to pick ONE, I'd rather have the career consistency and peak of Maddux.

    But I'm not about to call it an objective view, because it isn't.

  15. #15
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    Re: Greg Maddux

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies View Post
    I would put maddux just above Clemens
    Me too. They were both completely different (types of) pitchers, and aside from Clemens few seasons in Houston, he was entirely an AL pitcher while Maddux was an NL pitcher. I guess by that argument, Clemens would get a few points, but Greg Maddux having to pitch to the opposing pitcher and not a designated hitter is hardly the reason he was such an amazing pitcher.

    I hope he still continues to pitch, if he wants to. It's great watching him pitch.

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