2008 Sports Mogul MLB Awards - Ballot Discussion

[HoustonGM]

Yes, but he carried his team for 2 months and took them into the playoffs.

That's your criteria for MVP, right?

Only if said player plays on one's favorite team.

[phightinphils]

Only if said player plays on one's favorite team.

No, beacuse he is the most deserved.

[justanewguy]

No, beacuse he is the most deserved.

What makes Howard (who is less valuable than Utley) more deserving than Manny?

Let alone Pujols, Berkman, Wright, etc.

[HoustonGM]

No, beacuse he is the most deserved.

How?

Unless you completely ignore gigantic chunks of the season, and the fact that there are multiple players who do everything better than Ryan Howard, there is no logical argument for Ryan Howard being the MVP.

[phightinphils]

What makes Howard (who is less valuable than Utley) more deserving than Manny?

Manny quit on the Red Sox to get traded. Plus it is another league. It should not count. You need to play in the same league the entire year to be the MVP for that league. Just purism.

Utley was consistent throughout the year. But Howard had a monster August & September. His strikeouts were down, and his OBP was up. Without that, take away about 10 wins from the Phils. That is the difference between making the playoffs and playing golf. Hence, MVP!

Need more?

[HoustonGM]

Manny quit on the Red Sox to get traded. Plus it is another league. It should not count. You need to play in the same league the entire year to be the MVP for that league. Just purism.

Shouldn't you also have to...play GOOD for the entire year, or at least most of it?

Utley was consistent throughout the year. But Howard had a monster August & September. His strikeouts were down, and his OBP was up.

Again, incorrect. He had a monster September. That's it. He was bad in August. Chase Utley was good all year, and played Gold Glove defense at second base.

Also, the MVP award is for the entire season. This fact seems to slip your mind repeatedly. It is not the MVP of September and maybe August award. It is the MVP of the 2008 season award.

Without that, take away about 10 wins from the Phils. That is the difference between making the playoffs and playing golf. Hence, MVP!

No player can produce 10 wins by himself over the course of a 2 month period. The best players each year produce 10-13 wins over the course of a full season, with the truly legendary seasons producing 13+ wins.

There are many stats that use Wins as a metric. For example, Wins Above Replacement from Baseball Prospectus, which Ryan Howard is worth roughly 5 wins this year. Albert Pujols is roughly 13. Win Shares can be put into wins. Howard had 18 Win Shares, and 3 wins shares = 1 win, so he was worth 6 wins using the Win Shares system. Pujols was worth roughly 10 wins using Win Shares.

Your math is grossly off if you think Ryan Howard was single-handedly worth 10 wins in two months.

Need more?

Yes, and good luck with it, because it takes a huge stretching of the facts, and completely ignoring entire chunks of the season and multiple other, better players, in order to make Howard the MVP.

[phightinphils]

Oh I can get it. It just isn't worth the time to explain it. Obviously some people are overly biased due to numerous reasons. I call it like I see it. If you can't agree with it, then that is your decsion to deny it. Your loss. I am not losing any sleep over it.

[HoustonGM]

Obviously some people are overly biased due to numerous reasons.

I definitely agree with that.

[justanewguy]

Again, incorrect. He had a monster September. That's it. He was bad in August. Chase Utley was good all year, and played Gold Glove defense at second base.

What's also funny is there were stretches of the season where they were pitching around him to get to Howard. What about Utley's monster first half, if we want to count monster stretches so much? Without that you can take away a ton of wins and the Phillies have to go even further to catch the Mets later on.

No player can produce 10 wins by himself over the course of a 2 month period.

Barry Bonds could.

Other than that, Walter Johnson is the only player I can think of who could come close to it. Unless he's pitching in 2008 without weight training, of course.

Also, outside of the numbers, Manny was probably responsible for large numbers of wins for his team in August and September. It seemed to be a rare case where there's tangible evidence of intangible benefits. The team loosened up, the young players started having fun, and everyone immediately became better.

CC did the same thing, and though I'm not putting him in my Cy Young ballot, I'm wrestling with sticking him in the thick of the MVP voting for the same reasons I've got Manny up there.

But even if you're arguing who got who into the playoffs...

No CC = Mets win the wild card
No Manny = Diamondbacks win the NL West
No Howard = I don't know what, but with an average 1B they'd probably still be in the playoffs because of Utley, Burrell, and that solid pitching of theirs.

[phightinphils]

No Howard = I don't know what, but with an average 1B they'd probably still be in the playoffs because of Utley, Burrell, and that solid pitching of theirs.

PHINALLY! Some positive resposnes about the Phils. That is all I wanted to hear. Thank you very much!

[HoustonGM]

Barry Bonds could.

His highest WARP3 was 15.4, which he did in both 1993 and 2001.

Other than that, Walter Johnson is the only player I can think of who could come close to it. Unless he's pitching in 2008 without weight training, of course.

Johnson's highest WARP3 was 18.3 in 1913.


Now, that's just one win-based stat, but still. I've never seen a win-based stat put players any higher than that, really.

[HoustonGM]

PHINALLY! Some positive resposnes about the Phils. That is all I wanted to hear. Thank you very much!

That they're a playoff team WITHOUT Ryan Howard? Doesn't that shoot down the "Howard for MVP" argument?

The Phillies are a very good team. Ryan Howard's just no MVP, as he's not even the most valuable player on his own team. Chase Utley, Brad Lidge and Cole Hamels are each more valuable, and Jimmy Rollins and Pat Burrell have arguments as well, although it's close between them two and Howard. It's not anti-Philadelphia bias that has us say Howard isn't MVP. It's that...he just didn't have a great year if you can look past his HR and RBI totals.

[phightinphils]

That they're a playoff team WITHOUT Ryan Howard? Doesn't that shoot down the "Howard for MVP" argument?

The Phillies are a very good team. Ryan Howard's just no MVP, as he's not even the most valuable player on his own team. Chase Utley, Brad Lidge and Cole Hamels are each more valuable, and Jimmy Rollins and Pat Burrell have arguments as well, although it's close between them two and Howard.

No, it doesn't, but some positive responses about the Phillies is a rare thing. So I will take it.

I may be biased towards Howard, but he delivers the hits. I watch every game. He may not have given them 10 wins, but he has given them the wins to get to the playoffs.

I think what gets me the most is Ramirez was on that list and Howard wasn't. Ramirez is a punk for quitting on his team. And those numbers he put up since he went to the Dodgers, if he continued that pace for an etnire season with one team, I would have no problem calling him the best player to ever play baseball. But he didn't, and the only reason he is doing this is because he quit on the Red Sox just to get traded.

[justanewguy]

His highest WARP3 was 15.4, which he did in both 1993 and 2001.

Johnson's highest WARP3 was 18.3 in 1913.

Now, that's just one win-based stat, but still. I've never seen a win-based stat put players any higher than that, really.

I was thinking more in terms of raw wins and less in terms of wins above an average player. WARP is more relevant, and yeah, nobody is doing 10 in 2 months.

Bonds' numbers circa 2001 really skew sabermetrics, though. His stats don't make any sense in any format. He was an intangible case much like Manny is.

[HoustonGM]

I think what gets me the most is Ramirez was on that list and Howard wasn't. Ramirez is a punk for quitting on his team. And those numbers he put up since he went to the Dodgers, if he continued that pace for an etnire season with one team, I would have no problem calling him the best player to ever play baseball. But he didn't, and the only reason he is doing this is because he quit on the Red Sox just to get traded.

Manny sure has a weird way of "quitting on his team" then...you know, playing good and all.