Al mvp?

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Yeah, that's fair.

And if both teams were in contention for the majority of the season, I'd go right back to the numbers, regardless of whether or not one of them made the playoffs and the other didn't. I'd only let that decide for me if the numbers are REALLY close, and one of the teams was contending and the other wasn't for most of the season.

From various posts/articles it seems that Quentin's injury has REALLY affected his "chances" of MVP because of this (ie 1 month of play missing AT the wrong time - if there is a right time,btw,I don't know it ) & the 2 guys most talked about are Morneau & Pedrioa.....

[HoustonGM]

From various posts/articles it seems that Quentin's injury has REALLY affected his "chances" of MVP because of this (ie 1 month of play missing AT the wrong time - if there is a right time,btw,I don't know it ) & the 2 guys most talked about are Morneau & Pedrioa.....

For me, it has nothing to do with "missing a month of play at the wrong time." It's missing a month of play, regardless of when it happened. It's why Chase Utley wasn't the MVP in 2007. Playing time has value, and when there's players that have put up similar production, except in 150-160 games, they're, by default, more valuable than the player that did it in 130 games.

[gRYFYN1]

For me, it has nothing to do with "missing a month of play at the wrong time." It's missing a month of play, regardless of when it happened.

well when you look at a guy like Pedrioa (or howard or Delgado in the NL) wouldn't his team have been better off him being out than him posting a 600 OPS for 50 games ?

[gRYFYN1]

But then the debate comes down to this...

Jack Wilson puts up .329/42 HR/ 124 RBI/ but team finished sixth in division

vs.

Chase Utley puts up .324/37 HR/ 119 RBI/ but team wins division


Who is more valuable? Both put up nearly equal numbers. One difference.

Actually wouldn't tha make Wilson more valuable to his team ? if his team failed to win so many games he must have been far and away the bets player onhis team, While with number like those Utley may very well not even lead his team in those catagrories ...

[FRENCHREDSOX]

For me, it has nothing to do with "missing a month of play at the wrong time." It's missing a month of play, regardless of when it happened. It's why Chase Utley wasn't the MVP in 2007. Playing time has value, and when there's players that have put up similar production, except in 150-160 games, they're, by default, more valuable than the player that did it in 130 games.

As I said,I don't know IF there exists a "good time" for an injury or missing a "month of play" BUT what is certain a BAD time is just BEFORE an election....that is just natural,subjective voting process.

The same happened for McGwire - I was simply stating that although the injury can happen AT any time by simple elimination process of the mind - new facts ALWAYS outweigh old facts.For example "your last hangover" is ALWAYS the "worst" hangover whereas in reality it may not be....

[Robert]

The definition of the awards say otherwise.


Cabrera: .292/.351/.535, 36 HR, 126 RBI, below average defense, no baserunning value
Youkilis: .315/.392/.573, 29 HR, 115 RBI, good defense and versatility, no baserunning value
Sizemore: .270/.376/.509, 33 HR, 90 RBI, 38 SB, great defense, great baserunning value.

Sizemore is greatly underapreciated because a good chunk of his value comes from walks, defense, and baserunning. Sizemore's offense has been on par with Miguel Cabrera...and he's a CENTER FIELDER as compared to Cabrera and Youkilis being first basemen. That's why Sizemore is more valuable.

And Joe Mauer is another guy getting absolutely no love in the MVP discussion, and he's the most valuable player on his team. Unless you don't believe in positional adjustments.

Yeah. Even though he played 1B for majority of the year. Remind you of Pujols anyone? OF, 3B, 1B?

He has my vote for sure. To me, he is a valuable player. OF? Sure, 3B?, sure. 1B? sure. To me, if someone like that can play those positions and make the transition fine. (He did commit a lot of errors at 3B, but he did make stellar players with the Marlins last year) They deserve a lot more credit.

Also, going from NL to AL sometimes players typically slump. Has he? Maybe in the beginning of the year, but to me. He deserves a lot more recognition than some of the other players are getting. Even if the Tigers are out of it.

[HoustonGM]

well when you look at a guy like Pedrioa (or howard or Delgado in the NL) wouldn't his team have been better off him being out than him posting a 600 OPS for 50 games ?

Depends on who would've been in their place, but, generally, yes, which is why all the talk about how Delgado "turned it up when it mattered" and what not is silly, as it's partially his fault that he needed to turn it up.

Yeah. Even though he played 1B for majority of the year. Remind you of Pujols anyone? OF, 3B, 1B?

Yeah, they followed the same path to first base, but Pujols has turned himself into the best defensive first basemen in the league, and Cabrera, well, isn't.

He has my vote for sure. To me, he is a valuable player. OF? Sure, 3B?, sure. 1B? sure. To me, if someone like that can play those positions and make the transition fine. (He did commit a lot of errors at 3B, but he did make stellar players with the Marlins last year) They deserve a lot more credit.

He got moved because he was so poor defensively at the other positions, so, I don't give credit for that. I give credit purely on what he did when he played. I give Youkilis credit for versatility because he can play 4 positions at an average or better ability. Cabrera is below average defensively wherever he plays.

Also, going from NL to AL sometimes players typically slump. Has he? Maybe in the beginning of the year, but to me. He deserves a lot more recognition than some of the other players are getting. Even if the Tigers are out of it.

That has nothing to do with the value he provided, though.

[Robert]

He wasn't a poor Defensive Outfielder. He had 12-13 assists in the outfield. Played a good outfield. The switch to Third Base was difficult.

When Pujols played 3B, he commited quite a bit of Errors too. Remember? Had 10 in 55games played there. 2002 41games, he had 6. (with 37 starts) To me, that's not impressive, either.

Cabrera's first year at 1B, he has 9 errors, Pujols's first year he had 10 (but with more games played, Innings)

There really isn't a HUGE difference there. But yet, Pujols.

Range Factor wasn't a big difference. I fail to see how Pujols is a better defender by a large scale.

[HoustonGM]

The defense the two played at outfield and third base is completely irrelevant to this discussion, except for the 14 games Cabrera played at third this season.

You're using errors to judge defense. That's why you don't see a big difference. Errors are a very poor way to judge defense.

Revised Zone Rating has Albert Pujols first in the majors at .839. Cabrera is 6th in the majors with .756. In addition, Pujols has made 52 out-of-zone plays, compared to Cabrera's 25.

Using Chris Dial's Defensive Runs Saved, Miguel Cabrera is at -1.24. Pujols is at +11.90. That's only through September 2, but still.

Baseball Prospectus has Albert Pujols at 15 Fielding Runs Above Average (14 in 2007, 11 in 2006). They have Cabrera at -12 this season, which includes his time at third base.

I don't have access to this year's +/- numbers yet, but in 2007, Albert Pujols was at +37 (which is measured in plays above average). Second place was Casey Kotchman at +24, and then only Lyle Overbay and Kevin Youkilis were above +10. For 2005-2007, Albert Pujols was at 72 plays above average. Doug Mientkiewicz is second at +31. As I said, I don't have the numbers for this season, but Pujols, since he's made the switch to first base, has been BY FAR the best defensive first basemen in the game...BY FAR.

Cabrera's +/- at third basemen last year was -24, and over the 2005-2007 period, -37. He was the worst defensive third basemen in the league for that period, and third worst last season ahead of Garrett Atkins and Ryan Braun. Of course, that isn't relevant to this discussion.

Even using the less-than-ideal metrics of Fielding Percentage and Range Factor, Pujols is at .996 and 9.97, while Cabrera is at .992 and 8.33.

However, given the stats that are currently available for this season, Pujols is the best first basemen in the league. Cabrera is, at best, average, and that's being nice.

[Robert]

=

Using Chris Dial's Defensive Runs Saved, Miguel Cabrera is at -1.24. Pujols is at +11.90. That's only through September 2, but still.

How is this determined? What factors do they use to prove that Pujols has saved 11+ runs? And Miguel has lost 1? Errors? Range? What?

That seems like recently created stats to make others believe with calculated numbers to seem true. I've seen Cabrera make some spectacular plays at first to save a run. Yet, he's at -1. I've also seen Pujols do the same. But I've also seen Pujols make some blunders, along with Cabrera.

To me that Chris Dial's system is flawed. Just numbers crunched together.

It's easy to do, really. Just like how you calculate At bats and hits = Average.

[BINGLEBOP]

How many games have you seen Cabrera and Pujols play exactly? Anybody can see anything happen with a small enough sample size.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

You don't need stats to tell that Pujols is a FAR better defensive first basemen Miguel Cabrera, just use your eyes.

[Robert]

How many games have you seen Cabrera and Pujols play exactly? Anybody can see anything happen with a small enough sample size.

I love to watch baseball. I'm not a stat kinda guy, but I watch them play frequently through MLB.tv, it's how I watch all my Astros games.

[HoustonGM]

How is this determined? What factors do they use to prove that Pujols has saved 11+ runs? And Miguel has lost 1? Errors? Range? What?

See below.

That seems like recently created stats to make others believe with calculated numbers to seem true. I've seen Cabrera make some spectacular plays at first to save a run. Yet, he's at -1. I've also seen Pujols do the same. But I've also seen Pujols make some blunders, along with Cabrera.

Like BINGLEBOP said, small sample size. The +/- system uses video analysts that look at EVERY play during the season, and comes up with the amount of plays above or below average that the player made, and Pujols destroys the league in +/-. It's not some silly stat created in a basement. It's based off actual video analysis of every play. The Fielding Bible goes into full detail of how it's calculated.

To me that Chris Dial's system is flawed. Just numbers crunched together.

Quite a heavy accusation if you don't actually know how it's calculated. Here's how it is calculated, and it's based off Zone Rating.

[phightinphils]

The NL MVP should be cut and dry with Albert Pujols, but its much more open in the AL. Who do you guys think will win it?

If Quentin hadn't gotten hurt I think he would've won it easily, and his stats are still good enough that he could still win it. Pedroia has a pretty good case. A-Rod's been great. Youkilis is a solid candidate. I'm sure I'm forgetting another worthy candidate, but if I had to pick someone I'd be somewhat biased and take Pedroia.

UM, NO!!! Ryan Howard will win the NL MVP!