Al mvp?

[metsguy234]

Actually, when I think about it:
Quentin if the Sox make the playoffs
Either Morneau or Mauer if the Twins make it

[HoustonGM]

Actually, when I think about it:
Quentin if the Sox make the playoffs
Either Morneau or Mauer if the Twins make it

I still cannot, for the life of me, grasp why the performance of a player's teammates should decide an individual award. This makes absolutely no sense to me.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

I still cannot, for the life of me, grasp why the performance of a player's teammates should decide an individual award. This makes absolutely no sense to me.

I used to be of that school of thought, and still am to an extent, but I've kind of grown apart from it and take it less into account than I did.

If I had to guess who actually gets it, deserving or not, I'd say its between Morneau and Pedroia.

[gRYFYN1]

Actually, when I think about it:
Quentin if the Sox make the playoffs
Either Morneau or Mauer if the Twins make it

Actually shouldn't Quentin make it if the Sox don't make the playoffs ? After the will lose the lead after he is injured meaning he was move vauable ...

... buy why anyone responds to metsguy is beyond me. he is either highly ignorant or a simple minded troll ..

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

... buy why anyone responds to metsguy is beyond me. he is either highly ignorant or a simple minded troll ..

Both.

[HoustonGM]

Actually shouldn't Quentin make it if the Sox don't make the playoffs ? After the will lose the lead after he is injured meaning he was move vauable ...

I'm pretty sure this is tongue-in-cheek, but I heard some sentiment about this when Evan Longoria went down with injury. People were saying something along the lines of "If the Rays struggle while Longoria's out, that just shows how valuable he is to his team, so he should win the MVP", which, really, is an utterly ridiculous line of thinking.

[Arctic Blast]

Actually, when I think about it:
Quentin if the Sox make the playoffs
Either Morneau or Mauer if the Twins make it

Let me get this straight...Quentin if the Sox make the playoffs, since you apparently are of a mind that the guy's team must be playoff bound...except that he's been hurt, and therefore NOT CONTRIBUTED ANYTHING down the stretch TO the playoffs. Yes, truly a genius of our time.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

Let me get this straight...Quentin if the Sox make the playoffs, since you apparently are of a mind that the guy's team must be playoff bound...except that he's been hurt, and therefore NOT CONTRIBUTED ANYTHING down the stretch TO the playoffs. Yes, truly a genius of our time.

This is a flawed school of thought as well, in my opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're taking him out of the MVP race because he didn't play the last month or so of the season, which is silly because it is, in effect, the same basic reason that Ryan Howard is getting any MVP consideration at all.

The White Sox wouldn't even be where they are (in position to potentially make the playoffs) if he hadn't put up the numbers he did up until his injury.

[Arctic Blast]

This is a flawed school of thought as well, in my opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're taking him out of the MVP race because he didn't play the last month or so of the season, which is silly because it is, in effect, the same basic reason that Ryan Howard is getting any MVP consideration at all.

The White Sox wouldn't even be where they are (in position to potentially make the playoffs) if he hadn't put up the numbers he did up until his injury.

I was talking about mets' arguments jumping all over the place. Quentin is on my shortlist.

[OregonDuck1989]

I still cannot, for the life of me, grasp why the performance of a player's teammates should decide an individual award. This makes absolutely no sense to me.

Now I'm not saying I'm for what mets says as I am for Pujols winning the MVP in the NL but I heard an interesting point the other day in a debate on this subject.

Which was a team should at least have a winning (or close to winning) record to be considered.

He said this (which I believe was pulled off ESPN) "Where would they be without this guy? Oh yeah, still in last"

I think that if your team is in last and you hit .375 then your value is outweighed by something else on the team. Obviously your hitting isn't valuable enough.

Sizemore may be an exception because the organization gave up and shipped CC but if someone like Jack Wilson threw up incredible numbers in Pittsburgh and they still finished sixth...would he really be all that valuable to the team? Your "competitive value" isn't there. You are nice to have...but really not all that important.


But I think the Pujols/Quentin debate is completely different, I said.. Both put their teams at competitive levels they were not in last. They both are competing.

[HoustonGM]

I still don't buy any of that. The value of a player doesn't change based on the performance of his teammates. If Jack Wilson put up great numbers on the Pirates, his performance had value. If it's not "valuable enough" to outweigh the crappy performance of his teammates, that shouldn't matter. He can't control his teammates' play. If the value he himself provided is greater than the value that any other individual player provided, he's the player that provided the most value, and thus, the Most Valuable Player.

So, my answer to:

but if someone like Jack Wilson threw up incredible numbers in Pittsburgh and they still finished sixth...would he really be all that valuable to the team?

is: Yes. It's not his fault that his teammates played poorly.

[OregonDuck1989]

I still don't buy any of that. The value of a player doesn't change based on the performance of his teammates. If Jack Wilson put up great numbers on the Pirates, his performance had value. If it's not "valuable enough" to outweigh the crappy performance of his teammates, that shouldn't matter. He can't control his teammates' play. If the value he himself provided is greater than the value that any other individual player provided, he's the player that provided the most value, and thus, the Most Valuable Player.

So, my answer to:

is: Yes. It's not his fault that his teammates played poorly.

But then the debate comes down to this...

Jack Wilson puts up .329/42 HR/ 124 RBI/ but team finished sixth in division

vs.

Chase Utley puts up .324/37 HR/ 119 RBI/ but team wins division


Who is more valuable? Both put up nearly equal numbers. One difference.

[HoustonGM]

But then the debate comes down to this...

Jack Wilson puts up .329/42 HR/ 124 RBI/ but team finished sixth in division

vs.

Chase Utley puts up .324/37 HR/ 119 RBI/ but team wins division


Who is more valuable? Both put up nearly equal numbers. One difference.

Depends on their position, defense, base-running value, games played, etc.


And in the case of very, very close cases, I'll use it as a tie breaker. But, when two teams are in contention until the final day of the season, the outcome of which team makes the playoff should really be irrelevant to the MVP discussion...particularly if the one player isn't even taking part in those final games. Deciding the MVP race, an individual award, based on the play of ~50 other players over the final days of the season, is pretty silly.

[OregonDuck1989]

Depends on their position, defense, base-running value, games played, etc.


And in the case of very, very close cases, I'll use it as a tie breaker. But, when two teams are in contention until the final day of the season, the outcome of which team makes the playoff should really be irrelevant to the MVP discussion...particularly if the one player isn't even taking part in those final games. Deciding the MVP race, an individual award, based on the play of ~50 other players over the final days of the season, is pretty silly.

I do agree with you. Choosing Morneau over Quentin because the Twins made the playoffs is incredibly silly.

I just thought of the close, close cases and I thought to myself that if I was a sports writer and two players put up numbers like that together I would use competitiveness of team as a tie-breaker.

[HoustonGM]

I just thought of the close, close cases and I thought to myself that if I was a sports writer and two players put up numbers like that together I would use competitiveness of team as a tie-breaker.

Yeah, that's fair.

And if both teams were in contention for the majority of the season, I'd go right back to the numbers, regardless of whether or not one of them made the playoffs and the other didn't. I'd only let that decide for me if the numbers are REALLY close, and one of the teams was contending and the other wasn't for most of the season.