What the hell is Sabean doing?

[dickay]

Fine, major league organizations are infallible and can never make wrong or stupid decisions, as evidenced by the fact that whenever I disagree with a decision they make, inevitably, you or dickay (usually) immediately have to tell me why I'm wrong and the front office is right. Always. Front offices are infallible.

Really kid, you have issues. Where did I tell you that you were wrong and the office was right??? I stated that I was playing devils advocate and mentioning reasons WHY they may have made the decision they made. Why do you see this as a horrific move and refuse to see any of the common sense reasons as to why they may want to make this move??? Again, you must have some inside information and know more about this kid than the Giants, thats the only thing that makes any sense to me.

Stop putting words in my mouth. It really sounds more like you have a hard on for Sabean, want to find fault in anything he does, and are upset others don't necessarily agree with you. I don't know enough about Sabeans history to say yeah or nay....I do know that this move is not that big a deal and I can understand why he did it although I can understand that it may be a risk.

[HoustonGM]

Where did I tell you that you were wrong and the office was right??? I stated that I was playing devils advocate and mentioning reasons WHY they may have made the decision they made.

Than perhaps it's your tone.

Why do you see this as a horrific move and refuse to see any of the common sense reasons as to why they may want to make this move???

I don't. I disagree with the move.

Again, you must have some inside information and know more about this kid than the Giants, thats the only thing that makes any sense to me.

And that's the tone I'm talking about.

[dickay]

Than perhaps it's your tone.

Perhaps

Or perhaps you are making the assumptions you are so quickly blaming others of making.

My stance was crystal clear....this has gotten out of hand for such a rediculously trivial issue. Perhaps you should review your tone and why you garner such resentment at times.

[HoustonGM]

Perhaps

Or perhaps you are making the assumptions you are so quickly blaming others of making.

Assumptions which, no doubt, are largely influenced by the tone you're using. So, if those assumptions are wrong, I'd suggest perhaps using a different tone so that you're not misunderstood.

My stance was crystal clear....

Not quite. Not at first.

this has gotten out of hand for such a rediculously trivial issue.

Agreed.

Perhaps you should review your tone and why you garner such resentment at times.

Because, clearly, I'm the only person using an argumentative tone, and the only instigator in this thread.

[dickay]

No, you are right...continue blaming everyone else for every argument you get into.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Fine, major league organizations are infallible and can never make wrong or stupid decisions, as evidenced by the fact that whenever I disagree with a decision they make, inevitably, you or dickay (usually) immediately have to tell me why I'm wrong and the front office is right. Always. Front offices are infallible.

Nope never said that - if front offices were infallibl,it would be known I promise & then a) ALL teams would be 81-81 teams b) GMs would never lose their jobs & c) all Draftees would be superstars in descending order from their draft pick order.

All I pointed out was that :

1) Sabean & his co workers (scouts,managers,development personnel) made a decision not solely based on 24 games but the totality of needs/potential & future needs &

2) it was a "no lose" decision as either Gillaspie (or Sandoval) show they can handle the 3B role & save the Giants' millions in FA or they couldn't & thus pre empting the Giants' future course in the offseason. Either way it could only be achieved by a September call up in this case.

Sandoval has been in the minors for 4 years. This year he showed significant improvement, raking in High-A before being promoted to AA, where he continued to rake, all as a 21 year old. Such a rapid ascent and strong performance for his age deserves a promotion.

Really ? From AA to MLB ? Or was it another decision to "see" what could be the Giants' C/1B/3B of the future ? There are tens of players' who had similar seasons BUT didn't get the call,why ? Because the needs of those organisations were different from the Giants....

Beyond that, he's starting to near the professional service time where he must be protected on the 40 man roster or be subject to the Rule V draft.

According to MLB rules as a signee under the age of 19 he needn't be put on the 40 man roster till 5 full years of minor service time (eg end of 2009 season) so there was no hurry to bring him up/40 man him or even worry about Rule V till December 2009 at the very earliest.

Burriss is 23 already and a defense/speed-first player.

So ? He was called up when Vizquel went down & has played (like Bocock) to see if he was/is MLB ready for 09 & beyond...without playing NO ONE could predict (not you/me or BP or PECOTA or ZiPs) his actual fine play with the bat or on a daily basis.

Neither have parallels with Gillaspie, who is in his first professional season, and as a 20 year old, hit poorly in Rookie/Low-A.

24 games! PS he is 21 - DOB 06/18/87

[dps]

doesn't a professional baseball organisation know something about players' they see 24/24 & 7/7 since they signed for X million(s) & have scouted BEFORE numerous times?

One would hope so, but sometimes one's hopes only end in disappointment.

[HoustonGM]

Really ? From AA to MLB ?

Nowadays, it's not at all uncommon for top prospects to skip AAA entirely. AAA is used mostly as a place to stash players in case of injury at the major league level.

Or was it another decision to "see" what could be the Giants' C/1B/3B of the future ?

Both.

There are tens of players' who had similar seasons BUT didn't get the call,why ? Because the needs of those organisations were different from the Giants....

Okay.

According to MLB rules as a signee under the age of 19 he needn't be put on the 40 man roster till 5 full years of minor service time (eg end of 2009 season) so there was no hurry to bring him up/40 man him or even worry about Rule V till December 2009 at the very earliest.

I said he was nearing it, not at it.

24 games! PS he is 21 - DOB 06/18/87

This is his "age 20" season.

[filihok]

Another Houston being Houston thread I see

[HoustonGM]

Another Houston being Houston thread I see

Yeah, of course.



Everything is my fault.


Would you all prefer that I just NEVER post ANY opinions whatsoever, and never disagree or debate? I'm sick of the blatant hypocrisy. When I disagree and/or give my opinion, I'm somehow being an ass and trying to force my will upon others. When others disagree and/or give their opinion, it's just normal discussion.

Oh, and it's also funny how there are numerous forum members that I can have a debate with, and disagree with completely, and it's all just a fine civil discussion, and then there's a couple forum members that have to accuse me of crap and be excessively argumentative whenever they disagree with me on something (or in the case of this thread, just feel like playing devil's advocate. And again, I'm the one looking for the argument just for the sake of it. )

[filihok]

So, if those assumptions are wrong, I'd suggest perhaps using a different tone so that you're not misunderstood

I am Houston, if I make an incorrect assumption about you, then it is your fault.

I am Houston, if you take something that I say literally, then it is your fault.

I am Houston, if you state that you are not a member of a political party, I will continue to claim that you are.

I am Houston, if you tell me that I "must be high" I will tell you that I am "straight edge" and tell you again, and tell you that I stated that in a post 47 days ago.

I am Houston, I think (differently than you) therefore I am (right and you are wrong. Unless you are my friend, then you are one of numerous posters I can have an argument with and still be civil).

[HoustonGM]

Cut it the hell out. You're not even making any sense (especially that third sentence, what the hell?). You're jumping into a thread that you weren't participating in for the sole purpose of further instigating confrontation. And no, that's not an assumption.

I don't know what you have against me, but you're acting childish.

[Arctic Blast]

Houston, I certainly am not going to say he don't have the right to express your opinions, or what have you. Of course you do. However, there are times when it really is easier to just let something go. Even if you feel you're right, if the conversation has devolved in to nothing but a mass of circling arguments, just let it go. It's something I've noticed you tend to have a hard time doing. You're hardly the only one on these forums who could stand to learn this lesson, so don't think I'm trying to single you out for anything here.

[boa]

I believe the phrase is - Don't feed the trolls.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Houston, I certainly am not going to say he don't have the right to express your opinions, or what have you. Of course you do. However, there are times when it really is easier to just let something go. Even if you feel you're right, if the conversation has devolved in to nothing but a mass of circling arguments

I totally agree on this.I understand that posters/bloggers/writers & your average "Joe Fan" love their team (& Baseball) & always second guess management decisions.

Is n't that the fun of being a fan ? However,one hs to also be objective in one's criticism & assessment - one has to remember that :

1) Teams GMs/managers' have way,way more information (&/or knowledge) about players' than we do &
2) they are paid employees & have a boss WHO tells them the aim of the franchise which they have to adhere to* & finally
3) stats do not ALWAYS show the whole truth.

It was these points I tried to convey & when a title is so fervent - I mean "What the h*ll..." is not a very complementary title start - then I,personally,was arguing that as much Gillaspie's call up was unusual/risky it was not necessarily stupid ether.

If Sabean was so incompetent like HGM has said** (on him but also others eg Dusty Baker) then why in the world would an owner keep him ? Why would he be the Giants' GM since 1997 ? Also why did they extend him in 07 ?

Doesn't he own one of the best records of GMs all time ? Isn't SFG a relatively successful franchise under his tenure?

I would like to point out I am not Sabean's "hidden son" nor even a Giants' fan - I do believe that GMs make good/bad/average decisions & their actions affect their club.

But actions produce results & reactions .In the case of the Giants' lost season bringing up Bonzo the Chimpanzee IF HE has talent & is a possible source of FUTURE improvement is a RISKY decision but also a CALCULATED risk considering a multiplicity of factors with a possible high return.

Examples include :Cleveland keeping Lee after his disastrous season in 07 when all the Indian media were crying out for him to be traded or released,the decisions made by White Sox/Cubs/Brewers this off season & during the season.


Anyhows,HoustonGM seems to have his likes (eg Beane/DePodesta) & his dislikes (Sabean in this case) & argues that the former do great moves/decisions whilst the latter the opposite.

I find it funny that Sabean has done exactly the same THIS YEAR as Beane - youth movement WHENEVER possible - & gets treated in the exact opposite manner by the said same poster.

Is calling up Gillaspie a good or bad move ? Who knows....but there is some logic behind it (read posts 10+)

Is Sabean a "fruitcake" for doing this ? Undoubtedly not OTHERWISE he still wouldn't be the Giants' GM.....

Will the 3 weeks in the majors ruin Gillaspie or Sandoval ? Nope but it may find them their 3B of 2009 & beyond.

Also Houston has a tendency to bombard us with "facts" which sometimes are not as factual as they appear - yes Gillaspie has had an average start*** to his pro career BY THE NUMBERS but he has proved to be an advanced College hitter & there are also numerable non statistical factors to add in - from makeup,human development,team NEEDS,timing,usage etc etc.


Anyways just wanted to clear things up & precise that I was replying to the 1st post/title's contention which is/was not as clear cut as seemingly made out.





* MaGowan during the "Barry" era was a fervent supporter of win now policy & "veteran" presence....Sabean as all employess do,simply acquiesed & traded away youngsters for veterans & signed FAs in this light.The policy has changed since mid 07 & the Giants' have finally accepted to rebuild using youth & FA (Rowand/Zito deals)


** PS GM send MaGowan your CV to replace Sabean after this season as your "knowledge" & skills are far,far superior allowing you to criticize his decision making & actual skills . You could restore then their halcyon days of dominance in the West no ?

*** Note it is not a "bad start" but "average" as hitting over .260 is average NOT Mendoza line bad....