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Thread: Yankee Bashing

  1. #76
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    Re: Yankee Bashing

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonGM View Post
    Sorry, oriole^, your complaints are unfounded.

    Yeah, the Yankees have been good for 15 years and have not had to rebuild much. The same can be said for the Braves until recently. It also looks like the Yankees are about to be at that point as well. There will be a time when the Yankees suck again. There always is.

    (AND: I am not a Yankee fan. I like to see them lose, usually. I'm just being realistic.)
    I really, really should leave this alone...but frankly, it's weighing on me a bit. There's this perception that I'm in this thread and saying what I'm saying because I'm a homer and don't like the Yankees. Well, okay, that last part is true, but if that was the only thing going on here, I'd just say, "Go O's, beat Yanks!"...which I just essentially did.

    But the point in posting in the first place was that there isn't any Yankee "mystique" - whether you like it or not, and whether you think it's justified or "good" or not, the Yankees are where they are because of their payroll and how they manage players - specifically that they buy a great many talented free agents, beyond the reach of many other teams. Now HoustonGM and the rest know their baseball here, and I don't mean to say anyone doesn't. But there's a record to baseball, and it can be reviewed, and if what I said wasn't borne out, I'd just chalk it up to the beer and say to heck with it. So I did check the record; I'm still working on it, in fact, as I'm going back to 1980. And some patterns are emerging - enough for me to say that no, HoustonGM, my complaints are quite founded, and you are demonstrably wrong on this one.

    Here's what is emerging:

    The Yankees are not especially "shrewd traders". They have some very good trades and some very bad ones, and most are somewhere in the middle. Some of the players they rely on for their success (Paul O'Neill, etc.) came in a trade. This is not especially different from any other team. The Yankees do make a great deal of trades, which changes the character of their team fairly quickly, but they aren't all good and they aren't all bad.

    Many of the Yankees' so-called "shrewd trades" are actually salary dumps by small-market teams and rent-a-player deals. There are a bunch of real fleecings on the record, but they aren't of the traditional type where one player tanks and the other becomes a star; they're just simple admissions that the player in question can't be afforded by any team other than the Yankees, so we'll send him there for a paycheck and cut our losses.

    Example: Jack McDowell from the White Sox to the Yankees for a minor leaguer and the ever-popular player to be named later (Lyle Mouton, in this case; 1995). A plain ol' rental. McDowell, making $5 million at the time and two years removed from winning the Cy Young, leads the Yankees in ERA that season and is sent off as a Free Agent at the end, signing with the Indians in the off-season for less money. The Yanks lose to the Mariners in the off-season; his disappointing performance there may have had something to do with it.

    Example: Raul Mondesi to the Yankees for Scott Wiggins (2003). Wiggins pitches three innings for the Blue Jays in his short career; Mondesi and his $11 million salary are off their books, causing the Jays to breathe a sigh of relief and pick up some very cheap Free Agents (Frank Catalonotto, Mike Bordick, etc.) and do a quick rebuild around some emerging stars. The Yanks, of course, have no real trouble with Mondesi's contract; he hits 11 HRs for them down the stretch and in the post-season against Anaheim. Mondesi's salary jumps $2 million with the Yankees and goes down $12 million(!) when he leaves a year later.

    I mentioned the "common Yankee manuever" of picking up a veteran for the stretch run and got nay-sayed for it...well, it exists. Many "trades" are exactly these; usually it's a veteran pitcher for a ham sandwich when it's clear they'll be leaving anyway. So...John Montefusco, Doyle Alexander, Joe Niekro, David Wells. The aforementioned Mondesi was another, though of the non-pitcher variety, as was Aaron Boone (an emergent All-Star traded for a duff pitcher and a minor leaguer, shortly after his salary jumped) and many others. This isn't unique to the Yankees of course, except that they do it much more frequently than any other team.

    The Yankees pick up, on average, one Free Agent All-Star per season. Again, I haven't run through all the record; it may be .9 or something. I'll post the full list (as I was asked to back myself up) later. I'm defining "All-Star" as one who was an All-Star or in line for a major award (MVP, Cy Young, Rookie of the Year) in one of the two seasons before (or after, but I haven't found one of those yet) he became a Yankee. This essentially is the "line up the teams and pick the best guy" scenario I described before.

    In fact, there's a very interesting trend to note. There's one period where the Yankees didn't do this: the mid-1980s. Several FAs came to town, but they were mostly role players grabbed to fill holes, much the same way that any other team would do; Gary Ward is the only real exception (1987). The Yankees tanked in 1989, and stayed that way through 1992 - the only real extended period where they did so in the last 50 years or so. Then it was back to signing All-Stars as fast as they could: Wade Boggs, Danny Tartabull, Jimmy Key, Mike Witt...by 1995, they were back in the playoffs; by 1996, they won it all.

    Read that again for me. The one time in the past 30 years that the Yankees didn't buy Free Agent All-Stars, competitive balance takes over and they lose. The instant they go back to it, they win.

    (The other thing to point out here is that not every team does this - not nearly to this extent. Granted, it would take more study, but I'm putting that out there as an exercise left to the reader...we're talking about, in any given off-season, one of the top eight or so Free Agents going to one team, the same team, every time. It can't really be duplicated easily by any other team, though the Angels and Red Sox are tryin' hard. In fact, this aspect is the main difference between the Yankees and any average team.)

    Sorry for being a hard-ass about this one, Houston, but I was essentially told that I was full of applesauce when I could back myself up - and I just did.

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  2. #77
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    Re: Yankee Bashing

    Quote Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989 View Post
    Go Ducks!
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  3. #78
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    Re: Yankee Bashing

    Yankees suck! Yankees suck!

    It had to be said...
    ]

  4. #79
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    Re: Yankee Bashing

    Quote Originally Posted by metsguy234 View Post
    Yankees suck! Yankees suck!

    It had to be said...
    Let's Go Red Sox!
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  5. #80
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    Re: Yankee Bashing

    Quote Originally Posted by twinsGM View Post
    Let's Go Red Sox!
    Let's go Red Sox! Let's go Mets!
    ]

  6. #81
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    Re: Yankee Bashing

    Quote Originally Posted by oriole^ View Post
    I really, really should leave this alone...but frankly, it's weighing on me a bit. There's this perception that I'm in this thread and saying what I'm saying because I'm a homer and don't like the Yankees. Well, okay, that last part is true, but if that was the only thing going on here, I'd just say, "Go O's, beat Yanks!"...which I just essentially did.
    Just for clarification, I don't share that perception.

    But the point in posting in the first place was that there isn't any Yankee "mystique" -
    I don't see how this is true. The Yankees are a very storied, historic franchise. To me, that's "mystique." However, the Yankees aren't the only team with such a "mystique". I'd say the Cubs, Red Sox, Reds, and all the other teams with great histories have that "mystique."

    This isn't unique to the Yankees of course, except that they do it much more frequently than any other team.
    That would be because they are in contention more frequently than other teams, so it only stands to reason that they'll be making more "stretch run" trades.

    Look, I'm not denying that the Yankees do sign a lot of free agents. I'm simply saying that that is FAR from the SOLE reason for their success. I also don't think that the "buy" any more STAR players than any other large market team. Off the top of my head, a lot of the players they sign are very good or good players, but not STAR players, which is what you're contending. The only star players I remember them signing this millenium were Mike Mussina, Jason Giambi, and Gary Sheffield. Johnny Damon and Hideki Matsui haven't been STAR players, although Matsui was in Japan before they signed him, but the Yankees signing of Japanese stars isn't any different from any other team. Damon was never a star player, always a very good solid player. I don't think that record is much different than any other high-mid to big market team.

    The large parts of the Yankees success have come from homegrown players (Derek Jeter, Andy Pettite, Bernie Williams, Mariano Rivera, etc.) and trades, although yes, a good amount of their trades are acquiring other teams large contracts, but they still have to give something up for that and it's not strictly buying other teams players. They've gotten significant contributions from free agents, obviously, but it's no different than the Red Sox, Cubs, and other big market teams.

    As I said, all I'm saying is that signing free agents is not the only reason for their success. Is it a significant part of their success? Yes, but it's no more significant than their homegrown players and trades.

  7. #82
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    Re: Yankee Bashing

    The Mets are the team with the most mystique ever!
    ]

  8. #83
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    Re: Yankee Bashing

    Quote Originally Posted by metsguy234 View Post
    the mets are the team with the most mystique ever!
    "amazing!"

  9. #84
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    Re: Yankee Bashing

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonGM View Post
    Just for clarification, I don't share that perception.
    Okay, thanks. :-)

    I don't see how this is true. The Yankees are a very storied, historic franchise. To me, that's "mystique." However, the Yankees aren't the only team with such a "mystique". I'd say the Cubs, Red Sox, Reds, and all the other teams with great histories have that "mystique."
    That's not what I meant. Nobody would deny that the Yankees are a storied franchise with a rich history. (And yes, for the record, they have some very good homegrown players.) What I meant was that there's a tendency to view the Yankees on-field success as a sort of mystic "X factor" - as if people can't figure out why this otherwise average ball club is in the playoffs year after year. It's attributed to "drive", "heart", "tradition", and so on. I don't doubt that some players on the Yankees have those intangible things, but that isn't why they win. The real answer is much more pragmatic.

    That would be because they are in contention more frequently than other teams, so it only stands to reason that they'll be making more "stretch run" trades.
    Might be, might not. The Red Sox are the team the Yanks are most commonly in contention with, and traditionally, they don't do that as much...but after their Series wins they might be in more of a position to do so.

    As for the rest...well, we had two different opinions, and I went to the record to see what the facts actually were - fully expecting that I'd have to come back and eat crow. Turns out I was pretty well supported in what I said. You might not think it's the case that the Yankees buy their stars, but, well, it is. You might not think it's different from any other team, but I haven't found other one that does it to the same degree. If you're not convinced...I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    ==+==+==+==

    The Surf are back! Read up on the new exploits of baseball's most amazing team in Goin' to Surf City!, the ongoing story of the Ocean City Surf!

    "Any kid who grew up in Maryland would feel that it was a great dream to play in an Orioles uniform...thank you all for always treating me like family."
    -- Harold Baines, 46th member of the Orioles Hall of Fame

  10. #85
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    Re: Yankee Bashing

    Quote Originally Posted by oriole^ View Post
    That's not what I meant. Nobody would deny that the Yankees are a storied franchise with a rich history. (And yes, for the record, they have some very good homegrown players.) What I meant was that there's a tendency to view the Yankees on-field success as a sort of mystic "X factor" - as if people can't figure out why this otherwise average ball club is in the playoffs year after year. It's attributed to "drive", "heart", "tradition", and so on. I don't doubt that some players on the Yankees have those intangible things, but that isn't why they win. The real answer is much more pragmatic.
    Well, yeah, wholeheartedly agree with that. I hate hearing about that nonsense when it's said about any player and/or team.

    As for the rest...well, we had two different opinions, and I went to the record to see what the facts actually were - fully expecting that I'd have to come back and eat crow. Turns out I was pretty well supported in what I said. You might not think it's the case that the Yankees buy their stars, but, well, it is. You might not think it's different from any other team, but I haven't found other one that does it to the same degree. If you're not convinced...I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
    I'm not saying that the Yankees DON'T buy stars. As I said, all I'm saying is that that's not the ONLY reason that they've been succeeding.

  11. #86
    cartman00000001 Guest

    Re: Yankee Bashing

    oh and P.S. If I want to bash the Yankees, I will. It's my right to. Sounds like sour grapes when someone says "don't bash my team because they suck this year"....tough. Life goes on. I don't live and die by the Red Sox, I go to work, eat, sleep, all without the Sox. If they make the playoffs (looks likely), great! I celebrated in '07 when they took it all. For 2 weeks, it was great, then it's time to move on. You team stinks this year. Suck it up. Life goes on.

  12. #87
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    Re: Yankee Bashing

    Quote Originally Posted by cartman00000001 View Post
    oh and P.S. If I want to bash the Yankees, I will. It's my right to. Sounds like sour grapes when someone says "don't bash my team because they suck this year"....tough. Life goes on. I don't live and die by the Red Sox, I go to work, eat, sleep, all without the Sox. If they make the playoffs (looks likely), great! I celebrated in '07 when they took it all. For 2 weeks, it was great, then it's time to move on. You team stinks this year. Suck it up. Life goes on.
    If I'm being perfectly honest, I have to admit that I agree with what you're saying here, cartman.

  13. #88
    cartman00000001 Guest

    Re: Yankee Bashing

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Blast View Post
    If I'm being perfectly honest, I have to admit that I agree with what you're saying here, cartman.
    there aren't many people who ACTUALLY agree with me. This is a red letter day!!

  14. #89
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    Re: Yankee Bashing

    LOL, I agree cartman,I know some Yankee fans who are like that. When you diss their team, you're immature, when they diss your team, they're just celebrating their success.
    ]

  15. #90
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    Re: Yankee Bashing

    Quote Originally Posted by metsguy234 View Post
    LOL, I agree cartman,I know some Yankee fans who are like that. When you diss their team, you're immature, when they diss your team, they're just celebrating their success.
    Isn't this true of most fans of any team/player/game?

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